Dutch TV reports on 'Ryanair pilots denominated alarm over safety'
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You didn't get any basic salary BOAC?
Cause these guys don't, they could have an entire month of stby's and get zero added to their bankaccount. I assume u would have received your basic salary if such a thing were to happen in your company.
Cause these guys don't, they could have an entire month of stby's and get zero added to their bankaccount. I assume u would have received your basic salary if such a thing were to happen in your company.
Last edited by 737Jock; 5th Jan 2013 at 11:32.
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BOAC, I think the difference is they only get paid per flying hour, ergo, they don't get paid for anything else - home standby or airport etc..
While those with a proper contract get paid the same basic salary regardless.
While those with a proper contract get paid the same basic salary regardless.
Aldente, thanks for that link.
I cannot understand why anyone with even the merest shred of self-respect would fly on that airline, whether as a flight crew, cabin crew or passenger.
I cannot understand why anyone with even the merest shred of self-respect would fly on that airline, whether as a flight crew, cabin crew or passenger.
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Not even through a basic?
The fuel letters go out on a monthly basis to the bottom percent. Fuel leagues are published for all to see.
Pressure to work is only apparent in winter months when weather disruptions are a real probability combined with a roster that only had you doing 10-30 hours.
What these programmes try to emphasise is true, the fuel policy on paper is safe and legal and that can't be argued with but in RYR it's the bs with intimidation, bullying and excessive amounts of pressure which are more difficult to capture and document. Anyone remember the Skavsta incident when a FR skipper lost his son and feared for his job if he called in sick? Resulted in a very unstable approach and landing with flaps 10 if I remember correctly with all the epgws warnings going off or The FO who committed suicide which RYR played a part in? The sacking of a colleague for mentioning a union, under safety grounds.... These are some public cases that received some awareness but there's a huge amount that don't.
We received a memo a few weeks ago about which delay code we should use for oversized cabin bags being offloaded for the hold, very common practise this time of the year. Subsequently we take a 5-10 minute delay each time, no manoeuvring room on a 25min turnaround. Our memo basically states to blame the cabin crew. We already know any delay mentioned that's the cabins fault, they go through the kangaroo disciplinary procedures. it leads to colleagues begging for these delay codes not to appear. This to me is more undue pressure. They know it will prevent delays being written down for this very reason. This is just one additional stress attached to a simple procedure that results in begging from the cabin if you use it. There are many more like them. Make no mistake about it, you will get called and spoken to like a child, each time creates a pressure to avoid the bs.
The fuel letters go out on a monthly basis to the bottom percent. Fuel leagues are published for all to see.
Pressure to work is only apparent in winter months when weather disruptions are a real probability combined with a roster that only had you doing 10-30 hours.
What these programmes try to emphasise is true, the fuel policy on paper is safe and legal and that can't be argued with but in RYR it's the bs with intimidation, bullying and excessive amounts of pressure which are more difficult to capture and document. Anyone remember the Skavsta incident when a FR skipper lost his son and feared for his job if he called in sick? Resulted in a very unstable approach and landing with flaps 10 if I remember correctly with all the epgws warnings going off or The FO who committed suicide which RYR played a part in? The sacking of a colleague for mentioning a union, under safety grounds.... These are some public cases that received some awareness but there's a huge amount that don't.
We received a memo a few weeks ago about which delay code we should use for oversized cabin bags being offloaded for the hold, very common practise this time of the year. Subsequently we take a 5-10 minute delay each time, no manoeuvring room on a 25min turnaround. Our memo basically states to blame the cabin crew. We already know any delay mentioned that's the cabins fault, they go through the kangaroo disciplinary procedures. it leads to colleagues begging for these delay codes not to appear. This to me is more undue pressure. They know it will prevent delays being written down for this very reason. This is just one additional stress attached to a simple procedure that results in begging from the cabin if you use it. There are many more like them. Make no mistake about it, you will get called and spoken to like a child, each time creates a pressure to avoid the bs.
Last edited by McBruce; 5th Jan 2013 at 11:58.
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Beagle
I think you may have just described quite a large proportion of the UK travelling public, Ryanair or not.
Sorry to be so 'glass half empty', but some of them are just vile.
I think you may have just described quite a large proportion of the UK travelling public, Ryanair or not.
Sorry to be so 'glass half empty', but some of them are just vile.
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I cannot understand why anyone with even the merest shred of self-respect would fly on that airline, whether as a flight crew, cabin crew or passenger.
Some do not have much choice.
If your dream has been for ages to become a commercial pilot, your flight school tells you not everything about chances getting you a job, and spent 150-200K on the study, you have to make some money to pay the bank the interest and pay back the loan.
Any crew member wants to live, pay rent or mortgage etc etc etc . And need food.
Then there are not many jobs available for pilots. If you are very lucky KLM, BA or any legacy airline offers you a job.
Otherwise you might end up starting you own LTD based in Ireland and will fly on contract and being paid by the flown hours.
And your dept will increase because your typerating needs to be paid back as well. Double trapped into the claws of the airline.
I can image the fear of crews not to whistle blow to the press or co-workers.
Airlines are in charge at the moment. Some with less ethics with and a strong wish for the highest possible profit for the stakeholder abuse the current situation.
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I was 'salaried' and therefore paid basic whether I flew or not. It was not clear from the earlier posts that ONLY contract pilots were being discussed. Even on a salary, a month of standby's made a big dent in income.
In my last employment I was 'effectively' a contract pilot and therefore was not paid for home standby. Those events were thankfully rare and never more than few hours on the odd day.
In my last employment I was 'effectively' a contract pilot and therefore was not paid for home standby. Those events were thankfully rare and never more than few hours on the odd day.
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Pilotsince99 wrote:
Very interesting, I took the time to look it up. This is what the readable part of the letter says:
Then there is a statement from the letter, which was translated into german.
Which loosely translates into: "I would like to encourage you, to check/test your attitude against our current operational directions"
And from a memo:
it shows a letter send from a base captain to one of the pilots about being in the lowest ranking with regards to fuel uplift.
Dear ...
The fuel burn tables for january 11 are now available. These tables contain data derived from all the flights completed by each Captain during the month January 11 and are therefore comprehensive and worthy of review.
I have taken the opportunity to correspond with the top and bottem in this base
to highlight overall performance. On this occasion you are in the bottem 10%.
You will be aware through that we have fully documented policy on fuel uplift
......
The fuel burn tables for january 11 are now available. These tables contain data derived from all the flights completed by each Captain during the month January 11 and are therefore comprehensive and worthy of review.
I have taken the opportunity to correspond with the top and bottem in this base
to highlight overall performance. On this occasion you are in the bottem 10%.
You will be aware through that we have fully documented policy on fuel uplift
......
Ich möchte Sie ermuttigen, Ihre Einstellung gegenüber unseren aktuellen betrieblichen Richtlienen (...) zu überprüfen.
And from a memo:
Tons + Trip?
The most unacceptable excuse for last:"I like to land with 3 tons so I take trip + 3 tons"
This is not ryanair policy, this is completely unacceptable, and is not what you are remunerated to do.
Thank you
US Senator Daniel Moynihan said "you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts". I trust this memo will be helpful in establishing facts. Thank you for reading this memo and thank you for your continued awareness of the efficiency element of the equation "operate safely, efficiently and punctually".
The most unacceptable excuse for last:"I like to land with 3 tons so I take trip + 3 tons"
This is not ryanair policy, this is completely unacceptable, and is not what you are remunerated to do.
Thank you
US Senator Daniel Moynihan said "you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts". I trust this memo will be helpful in establishing facts. Thank you for reading this memo and thank you for your continued awareness of the efficiency element of the equation "operate safely, efficiently and punctually".
Last edited by 737Jock; 5th Jan 2013 at 12:25.
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Ryanair incidents due to crew
This is an overview of documented Ryanair incidents which could be blamed to the crew:
Most likely not complete. I cannot judge how this number of incidents relates to other airlines. Ryanair operates a lot of flights. However, statistics do not count, safety and peoples lives do.
Interesting is that:
-some incidents were not reported by the crew but discovered much later because of analyse of radar tracks.
-In at least one incident Ryanair press releases seems to downgrade the situation. Ryanair PR reported in Memmingen 'Caution Terrain' did not alarm the crew while the official report mentioned 'Caution Terrain' did alarm!
Ryanair B738 at Eindhoven on Oct 11th 2012, took off from wrong intersection and without clearance
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Eindhoven on Oct 11th 2012, took off from wrong intersection and without clearance
Serious Incident involving Boeing B737-800 Near Memmingen on 23 September 2012.
Ryanair B738 at Memmingen on Sep 23rd 2012, descended below minimum safe height
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Memmingen on Sep 23rd 2012, descended below minimum safe height
http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikation...ublicationFile (starting at page 65)
Incident: Ryanair B738 at London on Feb 7th 2012, descended below profile
Incident: Ryanair B738 at London on Feb 7th 2012, descended below profile
Accident: Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints
Accident: Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante on Jan 6th 2011, landed without clearance
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante on Jan 6th 2011, landed without clearance
Ryanair emergency landing due to low fuel (FR-8384 from London Stanstead to Alicante, Spain , May 14 2010)
Ryanair emergency landing due to low fuel | I Hate Ryanair
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante and Valencia on May 14th 2010, fuel emergency
Report: Ryanair B738 at Rome on Sep 7th 2005, loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance
Report: Ryanair B738 at Rome on Sep 7th 2005, loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance
RyanAir B737 at Skavsta 21st July 2004, hot and high approach, flaps overspeed, safe landing without report
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/6946-0.pdf
Final Report: RyanAir B737 at Skavsta 21st July 2004, hot and high approach, flaps overspeed, safe landing without report
These are the on internet documented landings with request for priority from the Ryanair crew:
December 7, 2012
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Budapest on Dec 7th 2012, priority landing after tower became inoperative
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Budapest on Dec 7th 2012, priority landing after tower became inoperative
September 4, 2012
Flight FR2048, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Leeds Bradford airport in Britain to Lanzarote
Ryanair denies new 'low fuel' landing - Yahoo! Singapore Finance
Most likely not complete. I cannot judge how this number of incidents relates to other airlines. Ryanair operates a lot of flights. However, statistics do not count, safety and peoples lives do.
Interesting is that:
-some incidents were not reported by the crew but discovered much later because of analyse of radar tracks.
-In at least one incident Ryanair press releases seems to downgrade the situation. Ryanair PR reported in Memmingen 'Caution Terrain' did not alarm the crew while the official report mentioned 'Caution Terrain' did alarm!
Ryanair B738 at Eindhoven on Oct 11th 2012, took off from wrong intersection and without clearance
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Eindhoven on Oct 11th 2012, took off from wrong intersection and without clearance
Serious Incident involving Boeing B737-800 Near Memmingen on 23 September 2012.
Ryanair B738 at Memmingen on Sep 23rd 2012, descended below minimum safe height
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Memmingen on Sep 23rd 2012, descended below minimum safe height
http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikation...ublicationFile (starting at page 65)
Incident: Ryanair B738 at London on Feb 7th 2012, descended below profile
Incident: Ryanair B738 at London on Feb 7th 2012, descended below profile
Accident: Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints
Accident: Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante on Jan 6th 2011, landed without clearance
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante on Jan 6th 2011, landed without clearance
Ryanair emergency landing due to low fuel (FR-8384 from London Stanstead to Alicante, Spain , May 14 2010)
Ryanair emergency landing due to low fuel | I Hate Ryanair
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante and Valencia on May 14th 2010, fuel emergency
Report: Ryanair B738 at Rome on Sep 7th 2005, loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance
Report: Ryanair B738 at Rome on Sep 7th 2005, loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance
RyanAir B737 at Skavsta 21st July 2004, hot and high approach, flaps overspeed, safe landing without report
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/6946-0.pdf
Final Report: RyanAir B737 at Skavsta 21st July 2004, hot and high approach, flaps overspeed, safe landing without report
These are the on internet documented landings with request for priority from the Ryanair crew:
December 7, 2012
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Budapest on Dec 7th 2012, priority landing after tower became inoperative
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Budapest on Dec 7th 2012, priority landing after tower became inoperative
September 4, 2012
Flight FR2048, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Leeds Bradford airport in Britain to Lanzarote
Ryanair denies new 'low fuel' landing - Yahoo! Singapore Finance
Last edited by 1stspotter; 5th Jan 2013 at 21:08.
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8 out of 10 pilots in RYR are contractors. That number increases slightly by time as all new joiners from cadets to DEC are contractors only. Some employment contracts have been given out but we're only talking about a handful.
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I think it has to be said that the people who are 'driving T&C down' are those accepting these contracts - yes, I DO appreciate why they are, but things will not change this way.
How many of those complaining about 'unpaid' standby's knew about them when they signed the contract?
How many of those complaining about 'unpaid' standby's knew about them when they signed the contract?
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How many old timers within the industry sat back and done nothing while in control, when this industry invited the idea of change? Now they blame the single entity that has no control or power that is a byproduct of that change....
Yes it's everyone else's fault except yourself.
Yes it's everyone else's fault except yourself.
Last edited by McBruce; 5th Jan 2013 at 14:51.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I recall many years ago speaking to a turboprop FO who was going to a job on the 1-11, and was prepared to may the cost of his conversion. That was unheard of in the industry at the time. I tried to dissuade him from taking that route, but his reply was to the effect "If I don't, somebody else will, and that's another jet job I won't get". Don't blame the older pilots. We couldn't stop the starry-eyed youngsters who would do anything to get a seat at the front.
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a) I'm not 'blaming' anyone, merely pointing out the facts.
b) "How many old timers within the industry sat back and done nothing while in control, when this industry invited the idea of change?" When was this 'invite' and what was it?
It is certainly not my fault. I negotiated a pretty good and flexible 'contract deal' which suited both me and the company 'down to the ground' and did not change anyone else's T&Cs.
b) "How many old timers within the industry sat back and done nothing while in control, when this industry invited the idea of change?" When was this 'invite' and what was it?
It is certainly not my fault. I negotiated a pretty good and flexible 'contract deal' which suited both me and the company 'down to the ground' and did not change anyone else's T&Cs.
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BOAC
There may well be some unpaid stand-by's but what matters most is the net income over a 12-month period. If that is being eroded due to an increase in unpaid stand-by's then one would be justified in feeling aggrieved.
There may well be some unpaid stand-by's but what matters most is the net income over a 12-month period. If that is being eroded due to an increase in unpaid stand-by's then one would be justified in feeling aggrieved.
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Absolutely, but as I said
"How many of those complaining about 'unpaid' standby's knew about them when they signed the contract?". If things have got 'worse' since then, then yes, be 'grumpy'. If not, it was their choice
No-one please misunderstand me - I do not approve of the RY emphasis on contract pilots, but they are not alone. I also feel sympathy for those finding employment difficult. I did not, I was lucky and I know it.
However, I do see the RY situation as akin to seagulls swarming around a rubbish tip. I would have taken it short-term if necessary and bugged out when I could. I assume that is one of the few advantages of a contract job..
"How many of those complaining about 'unpaid' standby's knew about them when they signed the contract?". If things have got 'worse' since then, then yes, be 'grumpy'. If not, it was their choice
No-one please misunderstand me - I do not approve of the RY emphasis on contract pilots, but they are not alone. I also feel sympathy for those finding employment difficult. I did not, I was lucky and I know it.
However, I do see the RY situation as akin to seagulls swarming around a rubbish tip. I would have taken it short-term if necessary and bugged out when I could. I assume that is one of the few advantages of a contract job..
Last edited by BOAC; 5th Jan 2013 at 15:18.
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I would have taken it short-term if necessary and bugged out when I could
Ryanair couldn't care less though. As long as they have enough bums to put on seats - they have no interest in making it the sort of company where pilots might want to plan a long term career.
Last edited by Aldente; 5th Jan 2013 at 15:47.
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BOAC, it might be slightly easier doing a few home standbys for no money when you are contracting for "fun" and living on your 100K a year pension, than trying to pay the bills with no income.
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but your moniker seems to imply that the main part of your career has been completed in a different era.
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but your moniker seems to imply that the main part of your career has been completed in a different era.