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Old 26th Dec 2012, 17:42   #41 (permalink)
 
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How many more of these until RNP?

If it turns out to be related to fog, misidentified road as a runway, or hitting powerlines with an otherwise good jet, it will just be one more tragic unnecessary "low visibility landing" accident that didn't need to happen. These kinds of accidents are entirely preventable using a decent FMS with RNP (at trivially low procedure development cost globally), or even better yet with GBAS/GLS (at far less cost compared to any ILS). How many more of these kinds of unnecessary accidents do we need to have globally, before we recognize that "non-precision approaches" are unnecessary, obsolete dinosaurs, that have no place in modern jet transport aviation?
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 18:16   #42 (permalink)
 
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I do not know how the aircraft in question was operated, but during my years on the F70/100, no RNAV approaches were permitted. While the FMS showed the relevant approaches inserted in the database, we were never certified to use them.

A non-precision approach, if handled correctly, is not less safe than an ILS or the like and by itself no reason at all to crash an aircraft. There have been aircraft flown into the ground on an ILS as well, see the Alitalia DC-9 at LSZH in 1990 for example.

It will be interesting though to see whether the GPWS was serviceable and working on this flight.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 20:45   #43 (permalink)
ZFT
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The US intelligence report is somewhat confusing. Whilst is doesn’t state which crews ‘stopped’ training in Singapore, of the then Air Bagan fleet in March 2008 I can’t recall any applicable simulators being in Singapore!


The ATR crews used Bangkok then and still do. No idea where the F100 crews went then or go now.


I think it is also fair to state that Myanmar 2012 is quite different from Myanmar 2008.

Last edited by ZFT; 26th Dec 2012 at 21:28.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 21:10   #44 (permalink)
 
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Tr's aside, the rh engine looks as if it has shed a few blades at some stage. The tr damage could have happened at any stage.

Until the report is out, the obvious contender will be the low vis approach. Until the full facts emerge, we do neither the potentially skilled actions of the crew nor the memories of the deceased any service. Lets wait till they at least pull the tapes and put out a preliminary report?

Last edited by VinRouge; 26th Dec 2012 at 21:15.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 22:02   #45 (permalink)
 
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This tells us something:

Air Bagan has said "the plane hit electrical cables about a mile (1.6 kilometers) from Heho airport as it descended and landed in rice fields."
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 22:27   #46 (permalink)
 
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 22:27   #47 (permalink)
 
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 22:55   #48 (permalink)
 
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Looks like a perfect horizantal landing though. There's no mention of a missed approach or problems reported with visibility on the approach and with a servicable GPWS or basic satnav there should have been little trouble with the glide. However the RHS engine nozzle extension looks strange and the rudder seemed to have been compensating for this at the time of impact. We'll have to wait on flight recorder data publication.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 23:51   #49 (permalink)
 
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@Tom Imrich: the aircraft wasn't GPS equipped. I'm not aware of any Fokker 100 with GPS.
DME/DME update is unavailable in the mountains of Burma. Hence no RNAV/RNP approach is possible there without GPS.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 00:02   #50 (permalink)
 
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ZFT, the ex- KAL F100 simulator was briefly moved by Alteon to SIN before going, I believe, to Ansett flight training in Melbourne.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 00:05   #51 (permalink)
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Really, thanks
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 00:43   #52 (permalink)
 
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Anyone have the METAR for the arrival time ?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 01:23   #53 (permalink)
 
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Tom:

Quote:
If it turns out to be related to fog, misidentified road as a runway, or hitting powerlines with an otherwise good jet, it will just be one more tragic unnecessary "low visibility landing" accident that didn't need to happen. These kinds of accidents are entirely preventable using a decent FMS with RNP (at trivially low procedure development cost globally), or even better yet with GBAS/GLS (at far less cost compared to any ILS). How many more of these kinds of unnecessary accidents do we need to have globally, before we recognize that "non-precision approaches" are unnecessary, obsolete dinosaurs, that have no place in modern jet transport aviation?
RNP AR, ah the bar is set so very high.

Then, even with that capibility the runway end has to qualify, which is not a simple deal. Look at the number of LPV approaches that have been denied in the U.S. because of GQS issues and/or lack of the requiste vertical surveys.

The state-certified vertically-guided approach simply won't fit everywhere, not even with Boeing's super state-of-the-art gizmos. And, oh what Boeing charges to apply all of this stuff to airplanes like an early 767/757. Think of having a fleet of 40 such airplanes and looking at Boeing's invoice.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 01:58   #54 (permalink)
 
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Folks,
Where did it crash, in relation to the airport? It is not obvious from the reports I have seen so far.
There is a road with a alignment not far off RW 36, to the south of the 36 threshhold.
Tootle pip!!

Last edited by LeadSled; 27th Dec 2012 at 01:58.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 02:28   #55 (permalink)
 
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They were lined up but too low and went through the trees along Highway 4, shearing off the wings:





























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Old 27th Dec 2012, 06:15   #56 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I'm not aware of any Fokker 100 with GPS.
Quite few in Australia, some with ADSB. By Dec 2013, they'll all have ADSB unless they stay low.

Of course having GPS is one thing. Having the approach in the FMS database is another. As aterpster said, these things cost...
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 08:08   #57 (permalink)
 
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If it was XY-AGC, then it is an ex British Midland FK100 (G-BXWE). I pressume there will be some ex BMI drivers familiar with that particular aircraft?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 08:14   #58 (permalink)
 
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I flew it in Myanmar as XY-AGC for airBagan in 2005, so go ahead with your question. (It had no GPS if that's it.)
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 08:21   #59 (permalink)
 
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There was a press conference today which had the senior flight attendant explaining what happened from her point if view.
She said there was no information given to them from the flight crew, they just noticed it was no normal touchdown and rushed to evacuate once the plane had come to a stop.
From what I understand she quickly moved herself to the overwing aero and opened some of the exits. At least one wouldn't open.
Passengers evacuated quickly and after that the junior flight attendant who was sitting in the back crawled through dense smoke to the front and reported to the captain (or senior attendant) that she saw no passenger on board. She received burns to her head on the way. The captain and this junior flight attendant left the plane by then and it started or was burning considerably by then.
The passenger who ceased did so because she fainted during impact and was left behind, the crew had no chance to notice her then in the smoke.
The senior flight attendant stressed that in her view the evacuation went pretty much as per procedure, and apologized for failing to rescue one passenger.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 08:56   #60 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
They were lined up but too low and went through the trees along Highway 4, shearing off the wings:
Machaca,
I assume this was to the south of the airport, and they were approaching 36, is this correct?
Tootle pip!!
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