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Old 13th Dec 2012, 06:12   #81 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Had an experience back in the 70's on a short flight to Las Vegas flying an empty Lear 23 letting a friend fly. Descending from FL410 I was balancing the fuel in the clouds. When I looked at the instruments I saw a 45 degree bank increasing as we were approaching red line airspeed. I took over even though I had to lean sideways because initially I didn't believe the instruments until I saw all three attitude indicators said the same thing. He had a commercial pilots license and considerable time and it was day time. He was also 40 years old vs 20 in this case.

I do not think there is any way to tell if the captain was sleeping during this event but the 20 year old had no experience at all compared to my friend who lost control of our Lear.

Mexico cuts a lot of corners in how everything is done. We can assume initially that the FO was not legal to be a crewmember of a Lear for commercial operation. That part of the investigation they can prove. Unlikely anything else.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 07:25   #82 (permalink)
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Would not be the first time a pilot of that age suffered a fatal medical event.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 09:06   #83 (permalink)
 
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theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane
the old 'black market charter' chestnut.

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Old 13th Dec 2012, 09:12   #84 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Had an experience back in the 70's on a short flight to Las Vegas flying an empty Lear 23 letting a friend fly. Descending from FL410 I was balancing the fuel in the clouds. When I looked at the instruments I saw a 45 degree bank increasing as we were approaching red line
never flown a 20 series lear, but from pilots i know that have, sometimes in very demanding operations, i understand that the aircraft can get away from you very quickly. would that be correct ?
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 09:24   #85 (permalink)
 
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Correct.

Before any crew member is let loose in a Lear, (or any other a/c for that matter), they should be able to demonstrate hand flying skills in the cruise at approved high altitudes. Best basic IF training you can get, hand flying an a/c at altitude..

There are a lot of young pilots coming through who are unable to demonstrate this skill, with any degree of competence. Not their fault, as it is discouraged because of SOP's, RVSM etc.

Last edited by doubleu-anker; 13th Dec 2012 at 09:29.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 09:25   #86 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
and, theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane
Of course, because a charter from one Mexican city to another with Mexican citizens as passengers in a US registered aircraft operated by a US air carrier would be illegal.

Of course the pilot with the restriction on his temporary certificate doesn't help either.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 12:45   #87 (permalink)
 
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Still more interesting background info on the owner of the Lear (note they own both N and XA registered bizjets)

Jenni Rivera dead, plane crash update: Owner of plane in crash linked to troubled businessman
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 13:54   #88 (permalink)
 
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theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane
They assert that this is a demo flight, at 3:30 AM. Sure it was.

Is it just me, or is someone straining credulity?
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 15:21   #89 (permalink)

 
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WOW!

Let me recap.

43 year old plane
70plus year old pilot
20 year old copilot
questionable airmen certificates
3:30 in the morning
Attempts to make this flight look like a DEMO flight instead of a charter for hire flight///possibly to avoid paperwork or regulation problems.

all of this prior to takeoff!

then the takeoff and climb to altitude followed in some 10 total minutes of flight by a ''nosedive'' into mountainous terrain.

6 or 7 passengers plus luggage, possibly musical instruments.
Possible, repeat, POSSIBLE routine musician hijinx going on, including internet posting of picture while flying.

BUT wasn't the interior looking nice after an update!


wWhat I have learned:

It is hard to fly airplanes well. Losing control at night or on instruments is possible without great attention to instruments and the task at hand.

Inexperience, especially in ''hand flying'' on instruments in airplanes that are ''demanding'' can be easily dealt with BY INSTRUCTION, and ExPERIENCE but is not done because of...wait for it....


MONEY.

I was fortunate in having to ''hand fly'' some demanding airplanes at altitude in all wx and time of day early in my career.

Later in my career, more foregiving planes were still demanding enough that I forced myself to ''hand fly'' as much as possible to maintain proficiency.

FLYINg is done largely with the mind...constantly doing many things (we call it multitasking now) but ''aviating'' still has to be first and navigating second...but a darn important second!
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 16:00   #90 (permalink)
 
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78 years old??????

The only thing he should have been allowed to handle was his adult diapers, not an aircraft!
How many more people will be killed by old f@rts refusing to step down?
Above 60 is bad enough, but 78??
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 16:04   #91 (permalink)
 
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so your making a judgement on the crash circumstances being directly attributable to the pilot's age ?

nothing else ?

the co-pilot was in his 20's so how does that square with your analysis ?

oh sorry... you're just trolling aren't you.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 16:20   #92 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
so your making a judgement on the crash circumstances being directly attributable to the pilot's age ?

nothing else ?

the co-pilot was in his 20's so how does that square with your analysis ?

oh sorry... you're just trolling aren't you.
Yes, I do. He clearly was unable to read the restrictions on his own license, that is a good indication.
He was in command so he should also be able to check his copilots ratings and know if they could or could not take passengers on the flight.
Even if he did not directly mishandle the aircraft into an accident, he certainly lined up all the cheese holes before taking off.
78!
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 16:23   #93 (permalink)
 
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that is relating to adherence to regulatory requirements, not age.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 16:39   #94 (permalink)
 
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He clearly was unable to read the restrictions on his own license, that is a good indication
I know PPRuNe is flooded with old f@rts, but this is getting ridiculous. And dangerous.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 17:41   #95 (permalink)
 
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The only place for a 78 year old on an aeroplane is down the back....end of
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 18:31   #96 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paully
The only place for a 78 year old on an aeroplane is down the back....end of
An 'Old Fart' Sends greetings.
You do realize that those are fighting words? You want to meet out in the restricted area at FL 250?

You should not throw all the senior citizens in the same little box. Some of us know our age induced limitations and how to accommodate them properly. And some of us are quite capable.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 18:44   #97 (permalink)
 
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Some of us know our age induced limitations and how to accommodate them properly. And some of us are quite capable
So said 411A (PBUH) before he went out with a big bang. Luckily he was not at the controls of a heavy jet when it happened.
Some never know when to quit. The problem is, you can get people killed because of this.
Why not buy a single engine prop and just kill yourself?
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 18:47   #98 (permalink)
 
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Well, the temporary certificate(validation based on a foreign license) is dated 2010, so is well elapsed. Did he obtain an IFR validation or a full certifacate at a later time? Why was he still carrying the elapsed one? Do not know.

Basing all the speculations on one picture might not be correct.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 18:49   #99 (permalink)
 
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ManaAdaSystem

Your advocating suicide among pilots is out of place on a professional aviator's forum.

May I suggest you troll elsewhere?

Regarding the pilot, at age 70+ something ... if he had passed his most recent physical, who are you to dictate that he should or should not fly?

If he hadn't, that's another story.
If his cert is no up to date, that's another story.
If he isn't qualified to carry pax for pay, that's another story.

EDIT:

@ Flydive: what if he had an up to date cert, but he left it in his jacket at home or he had put the wrong one in his wallet. With old folks, sometimes the memory goes adrift.

*awaits the thrashing from the geriatric brigade*

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 13th Dec 2012 at 20:24.
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Old 13th Dec 2012, 19:42   #100 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
So said 411A (PBUH) before he went out with a big bang. Luckily he was not at the controls
Completely out of place extension and correlation in a professional web site
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