Unless the Lear had black boxes in it that is all you have and I don't think they did. If that is the case they can only calculate descent rate and speed when it it hit the mountain. Measure the hole it hit and how far it skidded. End of investigation.
Bubbers, the wreckage, even if badly fragmented, can tell you a lot. I was part of the team that recovered the wreckage of an aircraft that flew into the water 50 degrees nose down at 550 knots. From the damage to the compressor blades and inlet guide vane positions we could evaluate power setting. From the way the Mach dial draped over the IAS dial, we could validate airspeed and Mach number. From the way the all attitude indicator draped over the rest of the instrument internals, we could evaluate attitude and heading at impact. Since we understood the context of the accident, this was sufficient information to write the accident report.
There is generally a lot more information that can be obtained if you have a complete set of wreckage. Reading the wreckage gives you the aircraft final configuration at the instant of impact. More violent impacts probably are better at preserving the final configuration since when everything distorts so quickly, it doesn't have time to move from crash forces before it is marked by items in its vicinity. The worst situation though is probably when components are thoroughly shattered down to the component part level.
You have to take this configuration data and figure out what it means. This particular accident will have a lot of data available to the trained eye.
Had an experience back in the 70's on a short flight to Las Vegas flying an empty Lear 23 letting a friend fly. Descending from FL410 I was balancing the fuel in the clouds. When I looked at the instruments I saw a 45 degree bank increasing as we were approaching red line airspeed. I took over even though I had to lean sideways because initially I didn't believe the instruments until I saw all three attitude indicators said the same thing. He had a commercial pilots license and considerable time and it was day time. He was also 40 years old vs 20 in this case.
I do not think there is any way to tell if the captain was sleeping during this event but the 20 year old had no experience at all compared to my friend who lost control of our Lear.
Mexico cuts a lot of corners in how everything is done. We can assume initially that the FO was not legal to be a crewmember of a Lear for commercial operation. That part of the investigation they can prove. Unlikely anything else.
Had an experience back in the 70's on a short flight to Las Vegas flying an empty Lear 23 letting a friend fly. Descending from FL410 I was balancing the fuel in the clouds. When I looked at the instruments I saw a 45 degree bank increasing as we were approaching red line
never flown a 20 series lear, but from pilots i know that have, sometimes in very demanding operations, i understand that the aircraft can get away from you very quickly. would that be correct ?
Before any crew member is let loose in a Lear, (or any other a/c for that matter), they should be able to demonstrate hand flying skills in the cruise at approved high altitudes. Best basic IF training you can get, hand flying an a/c at altitude..
There are a lot of young pilots coming through who are unable to demonstrate this skill, with any degree of competence. Not their fault, as it is discouraged because of SOP's, RVSM etc.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 13th Dec 2012 at 08:29.
43 year old plane 70plus year old pilot 20 year old copilot questionable airmen certificates 3:30 in the morning Attempts to make this flight look like a DEMO flight instead of a charter for hire flight///possibly to avoid paperwork or regulation problems.
all of this prior to takeoff!
then the takeoff and climb to altitude followed in some 10 total minutes of flight by a ''nosedive'' into mountainous terrain.
6 or 7 passengers plus luggage, possibly musical instruments. Possible, repeat, POSSIBLE routine musician hijinx going on, including internet posting of picture while flying.
BUT wasn't the interior looking nice after an update!
wWhat I have learned:
It is hard to fly airplanes well. Losing control at night or on instruments is possible without great attention to instruments and the task at hand.
Inexperience, especially in ''hand flying'' on instruments in airplanes that are ''demanding'' can be easily dealt with BY INSTRUCTION, and ExPERIENCE but is not done because of...wait for it....
I was fortunate in having to ''hand fly'' some demanding airplanes at altitude in all wx and time of day early in my career.
Later in my career, more foregiving planes were still demanding enough that I forced myself to ''hand fly'' as much as possible to maintain proficiency.
FLYINg is done largely with the mind...constantly doing many things (we call it multitasking now) but ''aviating'' still has to be first and navigating second...but a darn important second!
so your making a judgement on the crash circumstances being directly attributable to the pilot's age ?
nothing else ?
the co-pilot was in his 20's so how does that square with your analysis ?
oh sorry... you're just trolling aren't you.
Yes, I do. He clearly was unable to read the restrictions on his own license, that is a good indication. He was in command so he should also be able to check his copilots ratings and know if they could or could not take passengers on the flight. Even if he did not directly mishandle the aircraft into an accident, he certainly lined up all the cheese holes before taking off. 78!
Some of us know our age induced limitations and how to accommodate them properly. And some of us are quite capable
So said 411A (PBUH) before he went out with a big bang. Luckily he was not at the controls of a heavy jet when it happened. Some never know when to quit. The problem is, you can get people killed because of this. Why not buy a single engine prop and just kill yourself?
Well, the temporary certificate(validation based on a foreign license) is dated 2010, so is well elapsed. Did he obtain an IFR validation or a full certifacate at a later time? Why was he still carrying the elapsed one? Do not know.
Basing all the speculations on one picture might not be correct.