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Old 10th Dec 2012, 15:58   #21 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Quote:
The crash site is near Guadalajara about 30 minutes from Toluca, their destination.
The terrain around Monterrey however can be challenging, I've lived there for a few years - high mountains and snakey valleys. They were, however, not in this area when things went wrong.

Edit: Wonder why they flew towards Guadalajara, however, as this is not on the path from MTY to Toluca either. The investigation will show...
Quote:
The crash site is about 60 miles SSW of MMMY.
Quote:
FAA registry search shows it is owned by a Fractional corporation in Las Vegas probably leased to fly charter flights. Having done much of the same type of Lear Jet flying with departures after their concert in the wee hours I understand if they find out fatigue had something to do with the crash.
An LA Times article (dated tomorrow ) seems to indicate that the wreckage is near the town of Iturbide which is SSE of MTY and the plane is registered to a 'Las Vegas talent management firm' which may indeed be a fractional ownership for FAR purposes:

Quote:
The plane, built in 1969 and registered to a Las Vegas talent management firm, reached 11,000 feet. But 10 minutes and 62 miles into the flight, air traffic controllers lost contact with its pilots, according to Mexican authorities. The jet crashed outside Iturbide, a remote city that straddles one of the few roads bisecting Mexico's Sierra de Arteaga national park.

Wreckage was scattered across several football fields' worth of terrain. An investigation into the cause of the crash was underway, and attempts to identify the remains of the victims had begun.
Latin music star Jenni Rivera believed dead in plane crash - latimes.com

I'm guessing a likely initial departure route out of MTY VOR would be out UJ81/V19 perhaps transitioning to UQ101 at URSUR/30 DME. The MEA for V19 in that direction is 13000 ft. Apologies in advance for all this pilot talk.

Quote:
but my guess is that the instruments and electrical system may play a role here.

or, if it did get to 20,000 feet, forgeting or having pressurization problems and pilots pass out.
It's been decades for me but it seems like this vintage of Lear did not have ground air sensing for the pressurization and the FO had to turn it on with a toggle switch on the bottom of the front panel. If you forgot, an emergency mode would kick in by maybe 12000 feet with noisy hot air. Or, so they tell me...

Last edited by Airbubba; 10th Dec 2012 at 16:02.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 16:24   #22 (permalink)
 
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The crash that killed Walter Reuther and party was in Pellston Mi., about 100 west of Alpena. It crashed just north of East Robinson Road and East of Ely Bridge Road if I remember correctly. I do remember it was a Saturday evening around 9 pm. It was the first airplane crash site I ever saw. Seeing I was 11 years old they did not let me get too close to the site, but it was close enough to figure out it was not a good ending......But like a lot of these crashes they never really figured out why it really happened.....
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 16:37   #23 (permalink)
 
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Terrain in the area of the crash reaches over 12,000 feet.

MEA of airway is 16,000 or 13,000 or airway slightly to the east.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 16:40   #24 (permalink)
 
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Quote: reached 11,000 feet. But 10 minutes and 62 miles into the flight

I used to fly Lears, 23/24/25 models. Normal flight path would be to be at FL 41.0 20 minutes after take and 100 mile down range.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 17:49   #25 (permalink)
 
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Publishing the address of the alledged crew?! A new journalistic low!!
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 18:02   #26 (permalink)
 
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As far as the captains age look at the 3 in 1934. Now look at the 8 in his height and weight printed from the same printer. He should have been sound asleep by 11:00 PM, not flying at 3::30 AM. Does anybody know what his FO experience and age were? Hate to prejudge a crash investigation but I couldn't have done that flight safely.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 18:12   #27 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Quote: reached 11,000 feet. But 10 minutes and 62 miles into the flight

I used to fly Lears, 23/24/25 models. Normal flight path would be to be at FL 41.0 20 minutes after take and 100 mile down range.
One possibility already mentioned is a pressurization problem right after takeoff. I flew Lear 35A's and as I said above, if you forgot to turn on the pressurization, a loud hot emergency stream of bleed air would automatically come on at 9500 feet (from what I now see online).

From an old discussion of the 1999 Payne Stewart Lear crash in another forum:

Quote:
The Lear in question was an early series LR35, using the 20 series of alternate pressurization. Both crewmembers were inexperienced in type. Whereas in later airplanes, in fact most LR35's, the emergency pressurization is automatic, in the early LR35's and in 20 series Lears, the emergency pressurization required a manual action through the pilot foot warmers...otherwise any air would be diverted externally through the defroster ducts outside the airplane.

Almost certainly the crew failed to perform this action.
The mysterious death of Payne Stewart [Archive] - Glock Talk

Did the crew level at 11000 feet with a pressurization problem perhaps, get bogged down looking for the checklist and the foot warmer knob and forget about the rising terrain? At 0300 local you wouldn't expect to be held down by ATC (below the MEA) for traffic in that area.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 18:34   #28 (permalink)
 
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If the names of the pilots are correct in the news article linked to earlier the first data from the FAA airman certificate search is for one of the pilots. The second set of data is the only non student pilot or flight attendant with the name in the article and a record with the FAA. If this is correct I hope someone goes to jail for a very long time for what has happened. The 1st guy, vfr only, not for compensation, must have been PIC.

1st pilot named with no FAA medical

Date of Issue: 10/27/2010
Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT (FOREIGN BASED) Print
Ratings:
COMMERCIAL PILOT (Foreign Based)
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND

Type Ratings:
Z/LR-JET Y/HS-125

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
LR-JET, HS-125 (VFR ONLY).
ISSUED ON BASIS OF AND VALID ONLY WHEN ACCOMPANIED BY MEXICO PILOT LICENSE NUMBER(S) 200112880.
ALL LIMITATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS ON THE MEXICO PILOT LICENSE APPLY.
NOT VALID FOR THE CARRIAGE OF PERSONS OR PROPERTY FOR COMPENSATION OR HIRE OR FOR AGRICULTURAL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS.


2nd pilot named

Date of Issue: 4/27/2010
Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT Print
Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE SEA
ROTORCRAFT HELICOPTER AND GYROPLANE
INSTRUMENT HELICOPTER
GLIDER

Type Ratings:
A/CE-500

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.

Last edited by SloppyJoe; 10th Dec 2012 at 18:41.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 18:51   #29 (permalink)
 
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The "Date of Superseded Airman Certificate" looks like 08/25/1981....
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 20:03   #30 (permalink)
 
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Mexico License

If they were flying in Mexico with a valid Mexican license, what difference does it make what his USA privileges on a Temporary Airman Certificate are ?
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 20:21   #31 (permalink)
 
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Grrr

Quote:
anything in mexico...drugs?

anything that early in the morning...pilot fatigue/error?

anything that old...mx problems?

but my guess is that the instruments and electrical system may play a role here.

or, if it did get to 20,000 feet, forgeting or having pressurization problems and pilots pass out.


and yes, these are all gueses
I hate to sound like mean spirited person, but I have met quite a few experienced *corporate* pilots from Mexico that lacked basic instrument flying skills. Some of my flight school students that got corporate gigs later in Mex told me unbelievable stories of incompetence. That's when I recommended applying for their airlines from then on.

I wonder if this was a 135 charter (or equivalent). Could get interesting in court, now that we know that the carriage of persons was prohibited. Would be interesting to find out why this restriction/limitation was added.

Not saying that the crew was incompetent, but unfortunately there's that uncertainty.

What a waste of life.

PS Looking at the name of the Fed who signed this license I am pretty sure that he got this through the SAT FSDO.

Last edited by Squawk7777; 10th Dec 2012 at 20:28.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 20:36   #32 (permalink)
 
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Mexico License
If they were flying in Mexico with a valid Mexican license, what difference does it make what his USA privileges on a Temporary Airman Certificate are ?


"N" registered airplane operated by a company in Las Vegas owned by a company in Houston.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 20:52   #33 (permalink)
 
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We seem to have gotten way ahead of an investigation based on a photo.

The first priority ought to be to list the causal findings before making judgement on a factual relevancy like a single photo.

Does the wreckage confirm a CFIT?

what were the last radio calls?

What was the radar track vs clearence?

Was the profile altitude vs time sufficient to clear the terrain along the intended route?
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 21:04   #34 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawk7777 View Post
Could get interesting in court, now that we know that the carriage of persons was prohibited. Would be interesting to find out why this restriction/limitation was added.
The carriage of person for compensation or hire is not allowed.

This is because it is a commercial certificate based on a foreign licence(validation) in this case a Mexican license.
It is a standard phraseology on validations
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 21:33   #35 (permalink)
 
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I saw on another forum that someone looked up the faa database and it showed a permanent certificate with no restrictions on the Lear jet rating but I believe the other rating had a VFR only. I would guess this was a FAA 135 flight which would have certain check rides required to operate on the certificate. Im sure it will all come out soon enough.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 22:29   #36 (permalink)
 
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Fuel balance in the past???

Report Status : Probable Cause
Injury Severity : Non-Fatal
Event Date : 07/01/2005
Location : Amarillo, TX
Make : Learjet
Model : 25
Registration Number : N345MC
Accident Number : DFW05CA174


On July 1, 2005, at 1130 central daylight time (CDT), a twin-turbojet Learjet 25 airplane, N345MC, was substantially damaged when it struck a runway distance marker following a loss of directional control while landing at the Rick Husband Amarillo International Airport (AMA), near Amarillo, Texas. The airline transport rated captain, commercial pilot first officer, and 2 passengers were not injured. The airplane was registered to MCOCO Inc., of Houston, Texas, and operated by Air America Jet Charter, of Houston, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight. The 466-nautical mile cross country flight originated from the William P. Hobby Airport (HOU) near Houston, Texas, at 1010 CDT.

The 7,300-hour captain reported in the Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report (NTSB Form 6120.1/2) that approximately 30 miles from the airport he noticed the left wingtip fuel tank was "heavy." He started to transfer fuel, and then stopped the transfer due to being on approach and preparing to land. After being cleared for a visual approach to Runway 04 (13,502 feet long by 300 feet wide grooved concrete runway), the pilot stated that he was able to trim the airplane for "hands off." During the final approach, the pilot noted that the airplane "would not bank to the right without almost full right aileron." The airplane "started raising right wing as full aileron was applied, even with the first officer assisting." At this point, the pilot added that the right wing stopped coming up, but would not go level.

The captain further reported that he elected to land rather than add full power and go-around, instead of risking a potential roll situation. The captain added that "alignment to runway was off due to right wing." Subsequently, the airplane exited the left side of the runway striking a runway distance marker.

The first officer reported to an Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector that the landing fuel load was as follows:

Left Wingtip Tank: 600 pounds
Left Wing Tank: 1,100 - 1,300 pounds
Fuselage Tank: 400 - 500 pounds
Right Wing Tank: 1,000 - 1,200 pounds
Right Wing Tip Tank: 300 - 400 pounds

Maintenance personnel at a repair facility in San Antonio, Texas, where the airplane was ferried for maintenance, stated that they were not able to find any discrepancies in the fuel transfer system.

At 1141, the automated surface observation system at AMA reported wind from 130 degrees at 17 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, few clouds at 7,000 feet, scattered clouds at 12,000 feet, temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point 13 degrees Celsius, and an altimeter setting of 30.09 inches of Mercury. The runway was reported as dry during the time of the mishap.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 22:40   #37 (permalink)

 
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fuel imbalance...good idea...ooops, take off while crossfeeding...both engines from left tank...we all know highest fuel consumption is during takeoff and climb...then the thing feels out of trim (roll) and you don't pay attention and bam

I haven't flown the lear...but one plane I flew didn't have crossfeed, it had crossflow instead...what is the situation on the lear?
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 22:58   #38 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bracknell, Berks, UK
Age: 42
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A little googling brings up this tweet:

"El piloto del Lear Jet 25, Miguel Pérez Soto (70 años) más de 20 mil horas de vuelo. El avión (1969) muy viejo. Se desplomó en caída libre"

which Google Translate gives as:

"The pilot of the Lear Jet 25, Miguel Perez Soto (70 years) more than 20,000 hours of flight. The plane (1969) very old. He collapsed in free fall"

I don't think you can attribute the second part to fact, but somebody seems quite clued up about the pilot from the first part.

EDIT: FFS, the use of the spellchecker function in this forum to change T W E E T to PPRuNe is extremely childish (especially when it's not uniform!)

Last edited by Mike-Bracknell; 10th Dec 2012 at 22:59.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 23:59   #39 (permalink)
 
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Location: toronto
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Well here is a plot complication;

Company in Jenni Rivera crash has ties to alleged Gaddafi escape plot | World | News | National Post

As for accident site, sounds like approx 9000 foot level with wreckage strewn in a forward motion for over 1000 feet.

Photo - crash site
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 23:59   #40 (permalink)

 
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so, I take freefall to be an aerodynamic stall

there were two pilots, so let's not get too wacked out about age

but there is something about night flying in nice wx conditions...you must discipline yourself to use the instruments...night, mountains...very easy to fall for an optical illusion and put the nose on the top of the mountain, thinking its the horizon...horizon is at the base of mountains!
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