The Aviation Herald under legal threat
given the right amunition those masses could quite rapidly turn tail.
Last edited by wiggy; 10th Dec 2012 at 20:29.
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The Aviation Herald NO LONGER under legal threat by Ryanair
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I've been coming to this site for six years and seen hundreds of posts slagging off FR, predicting bankruptcy,disaster and worse. Yet conversely this site generally agrees that the FR fleet is one of the newest and best maintained (and largest) fleet in Europe. It also suggests that flight crew training is good.
Despite some inept marketing, often tongue in cheek, and questionable pricing tactics, FR continues to grow and make a profit. I've never seen miserable cabin crew (I fly FR 12-15 times a year) and whilst only a PPL, I've never seen any dangerous practices. Their safety record is second to none and is excellent per passenger mile and is a good place to start when deciding which airline to fly with. Try looking at AF.
I accept that flight crew have a massive gripe with employment conditions but if I (and the rest of the masses) fly with another airline that's more likely to result in less aircrew jobs. Is that what you want? I understand and sympathise with much of FR crew grievances but I also have professional difficulties of my own, it's not a monopoly! So FR is affordable, convienient and will, I'm willing to wager, continue to grow.
I'll get me hard hat...incoming!!!
Despite some inept marketing, often tongue in cheek, and questionable pricing tactics, FR continues to grow and make a profit. I've never seen miserable cabin crew (I fly FR 12-15 times a year) and whilst only a PPL, I've never seen any dangerous practices. Their safety record is second to none and is excellent per passenger mile and is a good place to start when deciding which airline to fly with. Try looking at AF.
I accept that flight crew have a massive gripe with employment conditions but if I (and the rest of the masses) fly with another airline that's more likely to result in less aircrew jobs. Is that what you want? I understand and sympathise with much of FR crew grievances but I also have professional difficulties of my own, it's not a monopoly! So FR is affordable, convienient and will, I'm willing to wager, continue to grow.
I'll get me hard hat...incoming!!!
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Enjoy the view!
Yeah, 33c aint a bad seat. Pull your head in dude. 33c is your customer. You know, the fellea who pays the wages we recieve, gives us a job and comments on our landings. Jeasus christ. The attitude of some here make me freekin puke. SLF with a PPL. They still fly
Get over yourself.
Yeah, 33c aint a bad seat. Pull your head in dude. 33c is your customer. You know, the fellea who pays the wages we recieve, gives us a job and comments on our landings. Jeasus christ. The attitude of some here make me freekin puke. SLF with a PPL. They still fly
Get over yourself.
Enjoy
It's all IMHO of course but I'm not sure when they will .
From personal experience (conversations I've had with other Brit expats) I've found that if "they" do admit to worrying about any aspect of FR they'll then always add the caveat that at the end of the day FR provide the only affordable service between an airport very near where they are and an airport very near where they want to go.
I'm not saying I agree with their logic or sentiments but I do think MOL has been very clever ( or has been very fortunate) at generating what is effectively a captive market in many parts of Western Europe.
For completeness I don't work for FR and I'm not defending their culture.
until they really start worrying about their safety.
From personal experience (conversations I've had with other Brit expats) I've found that if "they" do admit to worrying about any aspect of FR they'll then always add the caveat that at the end of the day FR provide the only affordable service between an airport very near where they are and an airport very near where they want to go.
I'm not saying I agree with their logic or sentiments but I do think MOL has been very clever ( or has been very fortunate) at generating what is effectively a captive market in many parts of Western Europe.
For completeness I don't work for FR and I'm not defending their culture.
Last edited by wiggy; 10th Dec 2012 at 22:04.
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At one point, the plane was just 450ft (150m) above the ground while dropping at a rate of 500ft/sec, according to the interim report.
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I have been knocked here several times for defending Ryanair , I know two pilots and two cabin crew who are friends of mine flying with Ryanair, they love their job with the company and are agast at times of the anti-Ryanair posting that is on this website. Yesterday Ryanair decided not to take legal action against the AV Herald, I posted that as a seperate thread but their was not a single comment to that post, now if I posted something that a Ryanair aircraft may have done the post would be snowed under with replies.
I rest my case on the constant and possible jealous comments that appear here on what is one of the safest airlines in the World with a fleet of new and modern jets, I have flown a lot with them, always on time each way, never saw a glum face on cabin crew and was treated with nothing but respect by airport staff, I hope Ryanair continue to grow and that the punters will fill the seats as I am sure they will and not be put off by what is posted here.
I rest my case on the constant and possible jealous comments that appear here on what is one of the safest airlines in the World with a fleet of new and modern jets, I have flown a lot with them, always on time each way, never saw a glum face on cabin crew and was treated with nothing but respect by airport staff, I hope Ryanair continue to grow and that the punters will fill the seats as I am sure they will and not be put off by what is posted here.
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I think Thunderbirdsix and others who attempt to defend FR staff. You are missing the point. The staff aren't the problem. The pilots are not the problem.
The problem with Ryanair is the corporate culture that permeates the whole organisation. This is management led and you know who encourages it. Thus we have this cack handed attempt by the Chief Pilot, who should know better and the McNamara to stifle comment on AvHerald. That would be fine if criticism of Ryanair was rare but right now it's endemic.
There are similar comments on nearly every forum that discusses Ryanair. I suppose the Mail will now receive a similar letter threatening them with court action. No doubt others will follow and PPRuNe and every other forum and online site with reader comments.
Actually the people to blame for all this are Ryanair management starting with O'Leary and working it's way down the chain. All his managers seem to ape his attitude and their utter disdain for their staff and customers is no secret. From the way the pilots and CC are treated to the way customers are treated. They've made enemies now. The Spanish are out to get them and it's hard to find anyone who likes Ryanair even those who use them regularly. It's hard to find a staff member who'll tell you they love to work for Ryanair.
They've gone too far and as a result every single incident no matter how minor is reported as a near disaster. The irony of the low fuel incidents in Madrid is that it demonstrated that correct and safe procedures were followed. But Joe Public thinks they nearly ran out of fuel.
It's said that all publicity is good publicity. Up to a point and I think Ryanair has crossed that point. They have lost the PR battle in terms of safety despite the fact that they are in all probablity safer than many better known airlines. Once the public perceive Ryanair as unsafe, people will pay more to fly for other airlines. They will lose customers. One serious accident and they will lose a lot of customers.
O'Leary for all his business acumen has somehow managed to produce an company that has a reputation for unfriendliness, a company that tries to rip people off, a company that doesn't even pretend to value it's customers. A company that treats the people who work for it as mere commodities. A company that insults some of it's most important workers on a daily basis. A company that now is seen as unsafe to fly with by many people.
I never understood why Ryanair had to be so actively hostile and arrogant to virtually everyone it comes into contact with. It really doesn't cost anything to be friendly. There is no need for much of nonsense you get with Ryanair.
Imagine if not only Ryanair offered competitive fares but also was popular with it's customer base and had a loyal employee corps. Nothing could stop it growing.
It's puzzling.
Really Ryanair management should begin to rein in their attitudes and try and mend a few fences. Being nicer costs nothing. But it may already be too late.
Maybe just maybe, the withdrawal of the threat of legal action is a sign that common sense is beginning to prevail. The original intervention was ill judged and stupid. It simply looked like an attempted cover up. That would be fine if Ryanair was generally seen in a similar light to BA or Qantas or even Easyjet. But it's Ryanair and invariably any mention of it in the media is negative not to mention the antics of it's CEO who plays up his irritiating image of 'Paddy the wild Irishman'.
We'll see.
The problem with Ryanair is the corporate culture that permeates the whole organisation. This is management led and you know who encourages it. Thus we have this cack handed attempt by the Chief Pilot, who should know better and the McNamara to stifle comment on AvHerald. That would be fine if criticism of Ryanair was rare but right now it's endemic.
There are similar comments on nearly every forum that discusses Ryanair. I suppose the Mail will now receive a similar letter threatening them with court action. No doubt others will follow and PPRuNe and every other forum and online site with reader comments.
Actually the people to blame for all this are Ryanair management starting with O'Leary and working it's way down the chain. All his managers seem to ape his attitude and their utter disdain for their staff and customers is no secret. From the way the pilots and CC are treated to the way customers are treated. They've made enemies now. The Spanish are out to get them and it's hard to find anyone who likes Ryanair even those who use them regularly. It's hard to find a staff member who'll tell you they love to work for Ryanair.
They've gone too far and as a result every single incident no matter how minor is reported as a near disaster. The irony of the low fuel incidents in Madrid is that it demonstrated that correct and safe procedures were followed. But Joe Public thinks they nearly ran out of fuel.
It's said that all publicity is good publicity. Up to a point and I think Ryanair has crossed that point. They have lost the PR battle in terms of safety despite the fact that they are in all probablity safer than many better known airlines. Once the public perceive Ryanair as unsafe, people will pay more to fly for other airlines. They will lose customers. One serious accident and they will lose a lot of customers.
O'Leary for all his business acumen has somehow managed to produce an company that has a reputation for unfriendliness, a company that tries to rip people off, a company that doesn't even pretend to value it's customers. A company that treats the people who work for it as mere commodities. A company that insults some of it's most important workers on a daily basis. A company that now is seen as unsafe to fly with by many people.
I never understood why Ryanair had to be so actively hostile and arrogant to virtually everyone it comes into contact with. It really doesn't cost anything to be friendly. There is no need for much of nonsense you get with Ryanair.
Imagine if not only Ryanair offered competitive fares but also was popular with it's customer base and had a loyal employee corps. Nothing could stop it growing.
It's puzzling.
Really Ryanair management should begin to rein in their attitudes and try and mend a few fences. Being nicer costs nothing. But it may already be too late.
Maybe just maybe, the withdrawal of the threat of legal action is a sign that common sense is beginning to prevail. The original intervention was ill judged and stupid. It simply looked like an attempted cover up. That would be fine if Ryanair was generally seen in a similar light to BA or Qantas or even Easyjet. But it's Ryanair and invariably any mention of it in the media is negative not to mention the antics of it's CEO who plays up his irritiating image of 'Paddy the wild Irishman'.
We'll see.
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As a mere SLF, It has NEVER crossed my mind to question the safety of FR's operation.
When the buses were first deregulated, there were plenty of dubious-looking vehicles plying the routes.....now the vast majority are clean, modern and "look" safe.
There's a strong parallel there, EXCEPT....That's not the issue.
Joe Public IS aware that all UK public Transport is heavily regulated and hastotal confidence in the administration of that regulation.....therefore , ANY Public Transport in the UK is "safe"
Wether it's morally or ethically sound is another issue altogether....
I'm minded of the tale that "Beardy" was escorting a VIP female and took one of his Hostie's cape to lay on a puddle for the VIP to cross it ...a great brouhouha at the time, as the girl was given under an hour to refresh her uniform and report back for duty......the defence to these actions, IIRC, was
"I pay top money for intelligence, initiative and dedication,-if it's lacking, they don't have a job with me"
So, there's nothing new. However much you resent MOL's success, he's built a very strong, dynamic company on the back of understanding that Air-Travel is no longer the perogative of the elite.
No doubt the same scenario obtained in the early days of motoring when the landed Gentry were aghast that mere tradesmen could stretch to "DIY" motoring.
Yes, I think on this occasion , this might have been a shot in his own foot....but again, it garnered a lot of "free" publicity and rattled a few cages and probably curbed some of the worst excesses. Result!- for him.
When the buses were first deregulated, there were plenty of dubious-looking vehicles plying the routes.....now the vast majority are clean, modern and "look" safe.
There's a strong parallel there, EXCEPT....That's not the issue.
Joe Public IS aware that all UK public Transport is heavily regulated and hastotal confidence in the administration of that regulation.....therefore , ANY Public Transport in the UK is "safe"
Wether it's morally or ethically sound is another issue altogether....
I'm minded of the tale that "Beardy" was escorting a VIP female and took one of his Hostie's cape to lay on a puddle for the VIP to cross it ...a great brouhouha at the time, as the girl was given under an hour to refresh her uniform and report back for duty......the defence to these actions, IIRC, was
"I pay top money for intelligence, initiative and dedication,-if it's lacking, they don't have a job with me"
So, there's nothing new. However much you resent MOL's success, he's built a very strong, dynamic company on the back of understanding that Air-Travel is no longer the perogative of the elite.
No doubt the same scenario obtained in the early days of motoring when the landed Gentry were aghast that mere tradesmen could stretch to "DIY" motoring.
Yes, I think on this occasion , this might have been a shot in his own foot....but again, it garnered a lot of "free" publicity and rattled a few cages and probably curbed some of the worst excesses. Result!- for him.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by cockney steve
all UK public Transport is heavily regulated and hastotal confidence in the administration of that regulation.....therefore , ANY Public Transport in the UK is "safe"
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@ Enjoy the view
I do know that I've never seen any dangerous practices because...I haven't and I know I haven't.
What you mean is that dangerous practices may be going on all around me of which I'm unaware. However statistics do not support this. Fact is Ryanair have about 50 aircraft more than BA or AF and whilst they certainly have incidents these are not disproportionate to comparable fleets. Better in fact!
Anyway I always take a window seat (28A actually) so that I can make sure the wing is tied on properly!
I do know that I've never seen any dangerous practices because...I haven't and I know I haven't.
What you mean is that dangerous practices may be going on all around me of which I'm unaware. However statistics do not support this. Fact is Ryanair have about 50 aircraft more than BA or AF and whilst they certainly have incidents these are not disproportionate to comparable fleets. Better in fact!
Anyway I always take a window seat (28A actually) so that I can make sure the wing is tied on properly!
Bluecode is spot-on, as seen from a PPL-SLF perspective.
I have no reason to think that this airline is unsafe in general, and from that point of view would fly with them anytime.
They do come across as an operation which does not treat a customer with much respect. Maybe they're not like that, and maybe I should try them out.
However, the media echo they generate - and partially seem responsible for themselves (toilet fees, standing room only, no seat belts etc.) - is such that I just don't want to. I'll pay what it costs to fly with other airlines, take the car or even stay at home. I'm a customer and want to be treated respectfully as such.
Time to rethink the PR strategy?
I have no reason to think that this airline is unsafe in general, and from that point of view would fly with them anytime.
They do come across as an operation which does not treat a customer with much respect. Maybe they're not like that, and maybe I should try them out.
However, the media echo they generate - and partially seem responsible for themselves (toilet fees, standing room only, no seat belts etc.) - is such that I just don't want to. I'll pay what it costs to fly with other airlines, take the car or even stay at home. I'm a customer and want to be treated respectfully as such.
Time to rethink the PR strategy?
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O'Leary obviously has some good money making practices however you can concentrate on the money side of things too heavily. A weakness in the path he is taking is he is not making any friends. Blue code’s post touched on this. There is inevitably some point in the proceedings of any endeavour where you need friends. In the airline industry this point may be when you eventually have an accident. At this point if most people hate you your life is going to be more difficult. This is just a fact of life. While things are going good nurture your friendships because you may need them one day and it does not cost anything. Politeness, courtesy, being a little humble etc all play a part in this.
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Mood Enhancer
this discusion needs a bit of levity..
We know that R air is reponsible for all flight evil because we also know overweight people blame their spoons..
We know that R air is reponsible for all flight evil because we also know overweight people blame their spoons..
Last edited by gleaf; 11th Dec 2012 at 18:34.