PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 7th Dec 2012, 10:39   #21 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 34
@TwoOneFour

(Obligatory disclaimer - this is not legal advice, you should use a qualified lawyer for that, this is merely commentary)


[re. moderating user comments]
Quote:
It's not nonsense. The website I work for does exactly this, for exactly this reason, and so do many others. What do you think a 'moderated' comment section is?
The website you work for may wish to consider obtaining specialist legal advice. Pre-moderation can work, but it absolutely is not a duty, and in fact by pre-moderating comments you may be opening yourself up to legal attack.


If you pre-moderate comments, you are accepting responsibility for their content - if something libellous gets through you are therefore very much in the firing line.

If on the other hand you do not pre-moderate - in the UK at least, although I believe these regulations are based on EU directive - you can claim a defence of being a 'mere conduit' that does not accept responsibility for third party comments. See Section 17 of the E-Commerce Regulations 2002:
Quote:
17.—(1) Where an information society service is provided which consists of the transmission in a communication network of information provided by a recipient of the service or the provision of access to a communication network, the service provider (if he otherwise would) shall not be liable for damages or for any other pecuniary remedy or for any criminal sanction as a result of that transmission where the service provider—

(a)did not initiate the transmission;
(b)did not select the receiver of the transmission; and
(c)did not select or modify the information contained in the transmission.
(2) The acts of transmission and of provision of access referred to in paragraph (1) include the automatic, intermediate and transient storage of the information transmitted where:

(a)this takes place for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission in the communication network, and
(b)the information is not stored for any period longer than is reasonably necessary for the transmission.
and also Section 19:
Quote:
19. Where an information society service is provided which consists of the storage of information provided by a recipient of the service, the service provider (if he otherwise would) shall not be liable for damages or for any other pecuniary remedy or for any criminal sanction as a result of that storage where—

(a)the service provider—
(i)does not have actual knowledge of unlawful activity or information and, where a claim for damages is made, is not aware of facts or circumstances from which it would have been apparent to the service provider that the activity or information was unlawful; or
(ii)upon obtaining such knowledge or awareness, acts expeditiously to remove or to disable access to the information, and
(b)the recipient of the service was not acting under the authority or the control of the service provider.
By pre-moderating, you give yourself prior knowledge of the content (eliminating a Hosting defence: if your pre-moderating process is intended to identify libellous material, it ipso facto means you should be aware of all the relevant facts and circumstances around the legality of the content, otherwise your pre-moderating process is a farce,) and you also 'select or modify' content (eliminating the Mere Conduit defence.)


In my experience, insurers have been very wary of providing indemnity insurance to pre-moderated message boards for this very reason.


You absolutely should have a process for promptly removing any potentially infringing content in response to a complaint, however.

Last edited by SLFandProud; 7th Dec 2012 at 10:51.
SLFandProud is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 10:46   #22 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 36
Posts: 422
This is clearly all posturing and intimidation. Do you really think M'OL would want to go into open court and either perjure himself or "air dirty linen"?

Just as restaurant critics have a right to be just that, critical, than anyone can air a reasonable opinion based on fact. Was the approach unstable, well it appears so. Does that make it unsafe, I'm guessing so. Just in the same way I can tell a Premiership footballer has had a bad game, having never been one, you can have an opinion on anything within reason.
Ex Cargo Clown is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:00   #23 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gone sailing
Age: 48
Posts: 96
cowhorse:
You really believe that an annonimous poster can cause harm to Ryanair?

No. Problem is though, that the big media uses sites like PPRuNe and avherald as ressources for their research about the aviation industry. And this is when it starts to hurt even RYR.

Last edited by 20milesout; 7th Dec 2012 at 11:01.
20milesout is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:09   #24 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a bolt
Posts: 8,861
One wonders why these sites do not pool their resources to defend themselves in circumstances like this.

Last edited by NutLoose; 7th Dec 2012 at 11:11.
NutLoose is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:20   #25 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 36
Posts: 422
"No. Problem is though, that the big media uses sites like PPRuNe and avherald as ressources for their research about the aviation industry. And this is when it starts to hurt even RYR."

Chinese whispers of the very worst nature. What if I had a bad experience with a company of any description, and told a friend who then told a friend who then put that information on a blog? Who has defamed who ?
Ex Cargo Clown is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:25   #26 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Stable
Posts: 52
Quote:
No. Problem is though, that the big media uses sites like PPRuNe and avherald as ressources for their research about the aviation industry. And this is when it starts to hurt even RYR.
No they don't - I have never seen a BBC reporter quoting an anonymous poster from a web site. Never.
cowhorse is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:27   #27 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Back home...soon
Posts: 201
NutLoose - regarding pooling resources for defense - actual lawsuits are relatively rare.

Most companies do not have huge budgets for initiating court action. Corporate legal departments need to prioritize, and spend their limited budget where they think it will be most useful, and usually that means trying to enforce whatever they want to achieve by other means, like threats. MOL publicly boasts about how little he pays his in house lawyers, and how cheap they are, so I doubt he has given them an unlimited budget to play with.
deptrai is online now   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:38   #28 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Stable
Posts: 52
Quote:
There's a big difference between saying you didn't like the lobster (opinion based on fact) and saying you think the chef was trying to poison you (unsubstantiated statement based on previous opinion).
What 'fact' - is there a physical unit that measures 'tastiness of a lobster'?
cowhorse is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 11:45   #29 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 36
Posts: 422
Quote:
Yes, but restaurant and film critics write within a specific guideline of libel law that permits it. There's a big difference between saying you didn't like the lobster (opinion based on fact) and saying you think the chef was trying to poison you (unsubstantiated statement based on previous opinion).
From my understanding of this whole mess is that people are basing opinion on an official report. What next, will RYR try and sue the BFU for daring to make the report public?
Ex Cargo Clown is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 12:11   #30 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 121
Ryanair have in the past posted priveat and confidential documents from DAA (i believe) and others on their own website to support a cause. P&C should mean what it says.

Anyone watching Starbucks deal with its perceived corporation tax issue should consider how a brand image can be changed in the eyes of the consumer for good or for bad.

I come from the school of thought that the seemingly confrontational approach adopted by senior management at Ryanair has had its day. It worked but I strongly believe they could achieve so much more if this apparent culture changed to be firmly customer focused.
lexoncd is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 12:13   #31 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Back home...soon
Posts: 201
I finally took the time to read the emails from Ryanair, now that they're published in full. The don't seem completely unreasonable (It may be a bit counterproductive to demand apologies from avherald though):

News: The Aviation Herald under legal threat by Ryanair

All this seems blown out of proportion. I don't think safety culture or freedom of press will be seriously harmed if the cited comments are deleted. I don't think said comments contained a lot of valuable and/or new and unique information.

But Ryanair may have contributed to blow this out of proportion, with their legalese and somewhat confrontational emails. I am not a lawyer and I have no idea whether these comments could be construed as defamatory, under whatever law. Fact is, Ryanair does have an excellent safety track record. They could as well just have ignored these comments, if they wanted to avoid drawing attention to them. It's hardly surprising that a media outlet will publish letters sent to them, particularly if the letters may be perceived as threatening. And the more "private and confidential" stamps there are on them, the more likely they will be published. Ryanair could have anticipated that. I don't think there's much for Ryanair to win here.

sometimes legal action to delete allegedly defamatory statements, or otherwise (allegedly) infringing content, has the opposite effect. it just draws further attention to the issue.

I had never heard of untied.com, the "united" critisism site which has been up and running for 15 years, until united/continental filed a lawsuit against the maintainer of the website (a McGill University engineering professor): United Airlines attacks Untied.com

then again, ryanair hired a "litigation specialist". and now that person probably wants to justify his/her salary.

Last edited by deptrai; 7th Dec 2012 at 13:25.
deptrai is online now   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 12:53   #32 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 397
Quote:
If you're challenged with a legal letter, the procedure is very simple: You don't antagonise the complainant further. You don't get on your high horse and assume you're right. You show goodwill, perhaps go as far as to remove the article until you've run it past your own legal team. When you're satisfied that you haven't blundered, then publish away and tell the lawyers to get back in their box.
Instead of endless speculation let's look at the real world.

Yes the website as publisher is responsible for anything posted there but during the past year alone how many people have been up in court for stuff posted on facebook or Twitter in the UK alone? And in how many of those cases has facebook or Twitter themselves been up in court?

None!

Because any legal team given a choice between suing an individual in the UK or a multi-billion dollar corporation based in the US will always go for the little guy. Now AVHerald doesn't have the resources of Twitter or facebook but if it is confident of the integrity of what it has published it should not be bullied into backing down because of what a particular subscriber may or may not have posted.

As has been posted a couple of times on this thread, RYR are not going to go bust because of one post on one forum. If it ever did come to court, damages to RYR would be estimated as pence rather than hundreds of pounds.

SoS

Oh and can a mod explain why if I type T w i t t e r it is posted as PPRuNe?

Last edited by Speed of Sound; 7th Dec 2012 at 12:55.
Speed of Sound is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 14:45   #33 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,211
I am a PPRuNe member, because I have a password and account, right?

When I post here, I assume that I am member of a private club. And so, the opinions that I write here, and those that I read, are of a private nature, like those said and heard in the pub.

Absolutely no one has the right to do anything legal against those opinions, or the website. In the pub, in the club, in the forum I am a member of, I can say what ever I want. Only the other members of the club can censor me, or just put me out of it.

However law is not always right and it goes against rights, often. Remember that middle east airline we cannot mention.

The Avherald however has no membership. But how can people's opinions written in the web be subject to any liability? they are opinions. I can have any opinion and nobody can do anything about it.
Microburst2002 is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 14:54   #34 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Back home...soon
Posts: 201
microburst, what you post here is publicly accessible, to anyone who wants to read it, or search for your opinions.
deptrai is online now   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 15:34   #35 (permalink)
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,567
Quote:
I assume that I am member of a private club. And so, the opinions that I write here, and those that I read, are of a private nature
- No! As deptrai says, this is a publicly accessible site. people do not need to register to read posts.

Thus your utterances are effectively 'public'.
BOAC is online now   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 15:39   #36 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
Posts: 143
Putting anything online is more certain than a letter and can be kept in cyber space for a darn sight longer!
gcal is online now   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 15:49   #37 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microburst2002
I am a PPRuNe member, because I have a password and account, right?

When I post here, I assume that I am member of a private club. And so, the opinions that I write here, and those that I read, are of a private nature, like those said and heard in the pub.

Absolutely no one has the right to do anything legal against those opinions, or the website. In the pub, in the club, in the forum I am a member of, I can say what ever I want. Only the other members of the club can censor me, or just put me out of it.

However law is not always right and it goes against rights, often. Remember that middle east airline we cannot mention.

The Avherald however has no membership. But how can people's opinions written in the web be subject to any liability? they are opinions. I can have any opinion and nobody can do anything about it.
Have your read the latest sticky found on every single board across PPRuNe Notice regarding post responsibility and anonymity? Especially in regard to what was mentioned there, I'd be careful with what I write on any internet forum.
DBate is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 16:02   #38 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 709
Does highbrow Aviation Herald really need a lowbrow section which permits comments?
Sober Lark is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 18:05   #39 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 643
I suggest we all make a small donation the AH as a show of support. I did.
ZeBedie is offline   Reply
Old 7th Dec 2012, 18:32   #40 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,366
Quote:
I suggest we all make a small donation the AH as a show of support. I did.
Zebedie - agree and have done so
fireflybob is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 13:53.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network