when the FO had told you to stop suddenly due proximity to that a/c.
Which throws up a question that lurks in my head since I read this story...what did the FO do? What did he say to his captain? CRM? Was he in the loop? Or wasn`t he informed at all?
Ballsout - I was giving a little allowance for possible non-English speaker (most people would have written 'after start') and the other thing is, of course, not always
One night taxying in at Baku I wasn't happy with wingtip clearance. ATC was getting stroppy, the 'Follow Me' was driving in circles in front of us (no kidding) and our station manager whom I'd permitted to sit on the flight deck (never again) was loudly telling me that there was plenty of room. Of course only one opinion counted and we moved slowly forward when I decided that it was OK to proceed.
Once had locals jumping up and down and shouting over a cargo door problem in Spain. Again, we went when engineering control and I had both agreed that it was safe to do so.
Never be pressurised into taking an avoidable chance.
The old art of opening the window to check seems to have gone, eh, out the window
True - also in the "olden days" we might have sent the Flight Engineer to go and have a look from a pax window or (on the B707) drop down through the "lower 41" to even take a closer look.
The approved procedure for single engine taxi on the narrow body Airbus is to start ENG1 first. If you are then going to taxi on one engine the electric pump is switched on to pressurise the yellow system and the flaps are deployed. If you decide not to taxi on one engine (slot cnx etc) then you start No2, after starts and off you go.
On another note, I'd love to a picture of the underside of the 767's stabiliser!
First, as Mr. Reid has already pointed out (and as I've pillaged from), you can consult the official report for pictures of the damage.
According to the report, the Captain of the Prestwick overrun on December 23, 2009, was 33 years old and had 5,557 hours (1,832 on type). The Barcelona report gives both Captain and F/O hours, apparently rounding off to the nearest 5. The Captain there (15 and 2/3 months later) was 34 years old and had 6500 hours (2215 on type). The F/O had 750 hours (500 on type).
Just a few weeks ago, I was sitting aboard one of FRs competitors (as SLF) when we had taxied just short of the holding point. After aileron and spoiler checks were done (twice on the Airbus) I noted no flap or slat deployment.
So, that'll be easyJet then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOAC
By the way, you said
"They had selected flaps after engine 1 start" which is NOT normal procedure.
Yes, it is at easyJet, if you are doing OETD (which is SOP).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BALLSOUT
BOAC. Engine start order on a two engine aircraft. first you start engine 2, then you start engine 1.
At easyJet it is now 1 then 2.
The OETD goes roughly like this:
Start 1.
Set the flaps.
Taxi around the airport.
Start 2 while taxiing.
Do the after start checks (while taxiing).
So, they probably forgot to set the flaps (easily done, given that for years we have all been setting flaps after second engine start) and had not yet got to doing the checks (sometimes delayed until you are stopped, so you are not both eyes down while driving).
Some of us have concerns about OETD, because it changes the order of everything (causing errors like, er, forgetting the flaps) and because it has both of you doing lots of checks when driving (causing wingtip crunching errors, or worse).
Yes, but to deliver equus sh*te about "They had selected flaps after engine 1 start but they had not deployed until much later" to the enquiring and alert pax.....................
Is it possible in OETD to fail to select the appropriate hyd system for flaps?
Shocking behaviour from the flight crew. It was criminally neglectful to ignore those warning signs and proceed with a departure after the cabin report.
But that, I'm afraid, is the outcome of a terribly irresponsible operational policy by FR's management. Time pressure, steep cockpit gradients etc etc. Lady luck beamed one heck of a smile at the crews and pax of these two aircraft.
One day she will be looking the other day when it comes to FR. Sadly. But the bean-counters and jeans wearing managers at FR are ignoring the warning signs in their indefatigable search for the €.
Is it possible in OETD to fail to select the appropriate hyd system for flaps?
Well yes and no! The Green system will provide "slow" flap but the PTU will run after park brake release (mod dependant) and give yellow Hyd and normal flap speed (if Yellow elec pump accidentally not selected).
Please don't get it into the heads of the spotters that frequent these forums that it's okay to blow the slides with the engines running. If the masters aren't cut in time and they choose the "wrong" doors then it's game over.
Please don't get it into the heads of the spotters that frequent these forums that it's okay to blow the slides with the engines running. If the masters aren't cut in time and they choose the "wrong" doors then it's game over.
I don't think the poster who proposed this scenario was suggesting doing so with a view to initiating an evacuation.
But, given an aircraft that has become potentially unairworthy and a crew who don't appear to give a toss, you can't deny that blowing the slide would be a pretty good way of getting their attention and making sure the aircraft wasn't going anywhere.
As a passenger, I mean. Like the Spanish passengers on the 738. Note that much is made of one of them being an engineer. Wow, says a lot for the airline view of the traveling public. Popping a slide as Agaricus bisporus suggests would seem a bit over the top for a non-pilot so, what do you do? Stand up in the aisle and refuse to sit down, knowing you'll probably look ridiculous or hysteric at some stage? Or sit back and cross your fingers.
That's what I did - sit back and hope for the best - somewhere back in the 1980s on a VASP 732 when I realised we were taking off with zero flaps. Rio to Sao Paulo, a connecting flight for Lufthansa. Then, there was just no time: a very fast taxi and zoom off we went and quite a rattling experience it was. I wonder what I would do today in similar circumstances.
But in this thread's particular case what seems almost criminally negligent is not that the 738 departed, but that its crew did not contact the AA flight directly to say "look, we passed very close to you and there may have been contact". If in doubt, etc.
Last edited by broadreach; 31st Jul 2012 at 22:36.
Too bad someone was not paying attention on NWA 255. By a strange coincidence, my little adventure happened in the same place, DET. As I was debating with myself over pointing out to the attendant what could have been a problem, I had that in mind.
And to the person who said it was normal to have full opposite deflection of the ailerons - well that may be. But I've been on a large number of DC-9 flights and never saw that before. And they did pull out of line. Whatever, it did no harm to just calmly point and speak out. Maybe it did some good.
