4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
According to today's Irish Daily Mirror (page 14) Ryanair has recently reduced the amount of extra fuel its Captains can take without seeking approval. They could take 300 kg (on top of trip fuel + reserves etc) but that has been reduced to 100 kg. Seems surprising given that the IAA, in the wake of Valencia, recommended Ryanair revise its fuel policy. Hope this isn't what they mean.
Certain Base Captains can be over zealous and I think this is where the
Pilots seem to have to explain if they land with more fuel than anticipated.
In my opinion, any pressure comes from the fact that Ryanair pilots have no form of Union representation. As I have said before once you decide you don't like someone (maybe because they don't behave like robots) then you can make life difficult for them such as "Why did you land with 500 kg extra fuel?" Given the culture of fear within the Company this is why some may feel under pressure.
It is the industrial relations (or lack of it) that is impinging on flight safety rather than the nuts and bolts of how much fuel etc.
Of course we all know that, in law, only the Commander decides how much fuel he is going to depart with. I have been thinking about this aspect recently and would suggest that if any undue pressure is put on any individual Captain then the persons doing so may be committing an offence - I refer to Article 137:-
Endangering safety of an aircraft
137 A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft.
I would suggest that placing Commanders under such pressure could be construed as "reckless".
What seems to be lacking is industry wide guidance what to do on the occasions when weather or other factors justify it. Some big airports which specify you must have 30 minutes extra are the exception. Say a requirement from the authorities to have a minimum extra with certain weather (CB/fog etc.) would be a good start and would create a more level playing field/hopefully increase safety.
Last edited by fireflybob; 13th Feb 2013 at 21:37.
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When I resigned from dirty RYR, giving them the required 3 months notice, they insisted on retaining € 5000 for my training. Money they were required to spend on my joining by the authority, not by my lack of qualifications, therefore a legitimate overhead business expense and as such tax deduct able by them or their agency.
So I spent the last 3 months ensuring I spent at least that amount extra on my operations. I went straight to the bottom of the fuel league, by a long margin. Never once was I questioned about the enroute weather I seemed to encounter.
The money never came to my pocket, but it certainly did not go to the pr!cks that run that outfit.
The IAA need to man up and regulate rather than collect fees. This operation has only one outcome. I have some very good friends, good operators and good trainers there, but you can only squeeze so much until nothing else is left.
As always, good people, crap management.
So I spent the last 3 months ensuring I spent at least that amount extra on my operations. I went straight to the bottom of the fuel league, by a long margin. Never once was I questioned about the enroute weather I seemed to encounter.
The money never came to my pocket, but it certainly did not go to the pr!cks that run that outfit.
The IAA need to man up and regulate rather than collect fees. This operation has only one outcome. I have some very good friends, good operators and good trainers there, but you can only squeeze so much until nothing else is left.
As always, good people, crap management.
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Enjoy the View says "this incident is closed and hopefully buried." Hopefully buried perhaps, but certainly not closed. According to a Spanish mate The Spanish accident investigators CAIAIC are pursuing it and plan to incoprorate the Madrid/Valencia fuel Maydays in a report they are planning to publish in a few weeks. Also he says that Mick is to be interviewed on El Gran Debate at midnight Spanish time. The online link is TELEVISION ONLINE - Ver TV online a la carta. Had a look but there's a political debate on at the moment. Maybe later (I think Spain is an hour ahead of the UK).
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Let's say you're flying at 450KTAS, the expected wind was 50 kts and it's actually only 30 kts.
If the wind was a headwind, you'll gain 5% TAS (420 v 400), whereas if it was a tailwind, you'll lose 4% TAS (480 v 500)......
such statements are pure fun on pprune !
If the wind was a headwind, you'll gain 5% TAS (420 v 400), whereas if it was a tailwind, you'll lose 4% TAS (480 v 500)......
such statements are pure fun on pprune !
Last edited by aerobat77; 6th Oct 2012 at 22:54.
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My mate suggests Room with a view's statement about the Valencia maydays appears to be based on a statement Mick issued saying that the IAA report (on the Ryanair website) was the final report into the issue. He tells me not so. As mnentioned earlier they will be incorporated into a fortchoming report into an earlier Ryanair mayday 14-05-2010. EI-DYX. Boeing 737-8AS. Aeropuerto de Valencia - 2010 - Investigación - CIAIAC - Órganos Colegiados - Ministerio de Fomento. It is imminent, I understand.
By the way am I correct in thinking that it's unusual to see an IAA report published? It doesn't appear on the IAA website so how come Ryanair published it. Does this mean that the Ryanair takeover of the IAA (the downtown office) is complete?
By the way am I correct in thinking that it's unusual to see an IAA report published? It doesn't appear on the IAA website so how come Ryanair published it. Does this mean that the Ryanair takeover of the IAA (the downtown office) is complete?
"this incident is closed and hopefully buried."
The whole point of flight safety and an effective Safety Management System is that incidents like these aren't "buried" and that they are there and available for review for others to observe and learn.
Is this the culture in RYR?
The whole point of flight safety and an effective Safety Management System is that incidents like these aren't "buried" and that they are there and available for review for others to observe and learn.
Is this the culture in RYR?
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Fuel Planning
This is one of the most important point whhile planning a Flight Plan. Depending which country are you flying in, little variation may occur for fuel planning, but largely it is same as per the ICAO.
So it must be adhared.
So it must be adhared.
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Squawk 7600:
With the risk of being accused of having reading comprehension troubles (as you stated BOAC and Enjoy The View are suffering from, and that probably anyone that has a different point of view must be suffering from), let me share a couple of observations:
Regarding the fact that you have no specific interest (you “could not give a toss”) in Ryanair, a quick search (and thus prone to error) reveals that 42 out of your 90 highly educational posts on the forum are directly related to Ryanair, i.e. about 45 %. That is, with a bit of imagination, half of your contributions. A ‘particular interest’ that is how I would read that.
Regarding your repeated statement (you in fact repeat it so much that it starts to smell) that you are merely trying to extract lessons for all pilots in general and do not want to crucify any involved Ryanair flight crew, I observe you nevertheless do so on several occasions. The insults, allegations and condemnations are too many to list.
Regarding accusing other contributors of “playing the man”: you have been doing more than your fair bit here on that one. That is unless of course you consider calling people “ idiotic’’, “partisan” living in a “parallel universe” is playing the ball rather than the man.
Regarding your statement that Spanish ATC is a total irrelevant factor in these events (yes, events, nothing else than that). I assume that within the operations of your excellent carrier (bla bla bla) you have been operating in and out of Spain, maybe you haven’t. For those who have, and were awake while doing so, it is clear that Spanish ATC is definitely to be regarded as a significant factor on a daily basis.
With your professional experience, as you have laid out here extensively, I would expect you to show a more collegial attitude towards concerned crews, not write them off as “rookies” with “poor airmanship” and “crap decisions” and to acknowledge that - most probably- the real situation concerned crews found themselves in that night, and subsequent decisions made, are not so easily captured in the simplistic summaries of yours and some of the other contributors here. You were not there that night, you were not taking part in any investigation afterwards. You have no more objective info and facts than any of us here. It baffles me that a professional with your experience fails to acknowledge that we do not dispose of all relevant elements in order to make a judgement on the concerned crews.
Your posts, and more specific the general undertone towards Ryanair Flight crew, lead me to belief you do have an issue with Ryanair. Whilst I can appreciate that one might have a multitude of valid reasons to have a go at Ryanair I believe your contributions reveal a sincere misappraisal for your fellow colleagues, i.e. Ryanair flight crew. Allegations/assumptions such as that the concerned crews purposely waited to minimum diversion fuel in order to declare subsequently a mayday with the intention of then getting “priority in the sequence” and screwing everyone else in the air are nothing less than infantile. I would have never come up with something like that, it simply shows the views you have on your colleagues. Funny isn’t it ? The day the rookies at Ryanair get hired by BA, Air France, Emirates, Etihad or Qatar they become well respected members of the pilot community, overnight that is.
You have by now far passed your noble intentions of extracting valuable lessons for all of us. And anyway… what lessons are there for you to learn from that night? Flight planning and in flight adaptation to current wx and operational conditions seem to hold no secrets for you. So whom are you trying to educate “Captain”? (it does reads awful when you put it between quotation marks)
On a side note: careful use of the word “partisan” with the intent to insult someone is recommended: “ A partisan is a member of an irregular force formed to oppose control of an area by a foreign power or by an army of occupation by some kind of insurgent activity. The term can apply to the field element of resistance movements, an example of which are the civilians that opposed Nazi German rule in several countries during World War II”. (source: Wikipedia)
And to conclude: a “general consensus” on this forum exists on the “rookies” at Ryanair with “poor airmanship” and “crap decisions” … in YOUR parallel universe.
I’d love to do my sim ride with you, any day.
With the risk of being accused of having reading comprehension troubles (as you stated BOAC and Enjoy The View are suffering from, and that probably anyone that has a different point of view must be suffering from), let me share a couple of observations:
Regarding the fact that you have no specific interest (you “could not give a toss”) in Ryanair, a quick search (and thus prone to error) reveals that 42 out of your 90 highly educational posts on the forum are directly related to Ryanair, i.e. about 45 %. That is, with a bit of imagination, half of your contributions. A ‘particular interest’ that is how I would read that.
Regarding your repeated statement (you in fact repeat it so much that it starts to smell) that you are merely trying to extract lessons for all pilots in general and do not want to crucify any involved Ryanair flight crew, I observe you nevertheless do so on several occasions. The insults, allegations and condemnations are too many to list.
Regarding accusing other contributors of “playing the man”: you have been doing more than your fair bit here on that one. That is unless of course you consider calling people “ idiotic’’, “partisan” living in a “parallel universe” is playing the ball rather than the man.
Regarding your statement that Spanish ATC is a total irrelevant factor in these events (yes, events, nothing else than that). I assume that within the operations of your excellent carrier (bla bla bla) you have been operating in and out of Spain, maybe you haven’t. For those who have, and were awake while doing so, it is clear that Spanish ATC is definitely to be regarded as a significant factor on a daily basis.
With your professional experience, as you have laid out here extensively, I would expect you to show a more collegial attitude towards concerned crews, not write them off as “rookies” with “poor airmanship” and “crap decisions” and to acknowledge that - most probably- the real situation concerned crews found themselves in that night, and subsequent decisions made, are not so easily captured in the simplistic summaries of yours and some of the other contributors here. You were not there that night, you were not taking part in any investigation afterwards. You have no more objective info and facts than any of us here. It baffles me that a professional with your experience fails to acknowledge that we do not dispose of all relevant elements in order to make a judgement on the concerned crews.
Your posts, and more specific the general undertone towards Ryanair Flight crew, lead me to belief you do have an issue with Ryanair. Whilst I can appreciate that one might have a multitude of valid reasons to have a go at Ryanair I believe your contributions reveal a sincere misappraisal for your fellow colleagues, i.e. Ryanair flight crew. Allegations/assumptions such as that the concerned crews purposely waited to minimum diversion fuel in order to declare subsequently a mayday with the intention of then getting “priority in the sequence” and screwing everyone else in the air are nothing less than infantile. I would have never come up with something like that, it simply shows the views you have on your colleagues. Funny isn’t it ? The day the rookies at Ryanair get hired by BA, Air France, Emirates, Etihad or Qatar they become well respected members of the pilot community, overnight that is.
You have by now far passed your noble intentions of extracting valuable lessons for all of us. And anyway… what lessons are there for you to learn from that night? Flight planning and in flight adaptation to current wx and operational conditions seem to hold no secrets for you. So whom are you trying to educate “Captain”? (it does reads awful when you put it between quotation marks)
On a side note: careful use of the word “partisan” with the intent to insult someone is recommended: “ A partisan is a member of an irregular force formed to oppose control of an area by a foreign power or by an army of occupation by some kind of insurgent activity. The term can apply to the field element of resistance movements, an example of which are the civilians that opposed Nazi German rule in several countries during World War II”. (source: Wikipedia)
And to conclude: a “general consensus” on this forum exists on the “rookies” at Ryanair with “poor airmanship” and “crap decisions” … in YOUR parallel universe.
I’d love to do my sim ride with you, any day.
Last edited by Adhemar; 7th Oct 2012 at 22:56.
Just getting back onto the basic debate, I don't go too much with the argument of ascribing any "blame" to Spanish ATC.
There are plenty of places in the world where ATC is known to be sub standard - it's just part of the cards you are dealt with.
If Spanish ATC is known to be lacking in certain areas, wouldn't that be a reason for being proactive and loading more than a little fuel extra and/or perhaps allowing a little bit extra for diversion and/or making an early decision to divert?
Am not saying that it is excusable for ATC to be deficient anywhere and that we shouldn't attempt through all channels to lobby for improvement but surely it's part of the Captain's and operating company's remit to be proactive in all areas. (btw am not saying these pilots or even Ryanair, operationally, do not do so but making a general point).
There are plenty of places in the world where ATC is known to be sub standard - it's just part of the cards you are dealt with.
If Spanish ATC is known to be lacking in certain areas, wouldn't that be a reason for being proactive and loading more than a little fuel extra and/or perhaps allowing a little bit extra for diversion and/or making an early decision to divert?
Am not saying that it is excusable for ATC to be deficient anywhere and that we shouldn't attempt through all channels to lobby for improvement but surely it's part of the Captain's and operating company's remit to be proactive in all areas. (btw am not saying these pilots or even Ryanair, operationally, do not do so but making a general point).
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To this SLF, the attitude and actions of the airline that forces John R to post his apology ensures that I would never feel comfortable on that airline, even though I know they are a safe airline. To me a responsible airline, if it is that important to them, would show why the original posts were wrong and not use a big stick to prevent discourse.
Last edited by TeachMe; 22nd Apr 2013 at 18:47.