Tienetti - as I said in #163 and MrH in #209, the chances of getting the truth here are slim. However, I do not have the time, but if you have it would be useful to list the callsigns involved (from FR24), when they entered the hold at MAD, when they departed for VLC and how long they held at VLC - any chance?
Assuming all 4 aircraft left the hold with a predicted fuel state of CMR at DA following an approach (they would surely not have 'committed' to MAD?) they should have been nowhere near a MAYDAY from what you describe ie "no aircraft has been kept over VLC more than 4 minutes" so it is apparent there is more to 'discover'.
If as claimed by Ryanair they had plus 30 mins fuel / 300 miles then it shouldn't have been a Mayday call.
The likelihood of a quadruple event such as what is reported is much much lower than the likelihood of one event occurring. What happened doesn't seem logical and based on this I'd say the Mayday call seems to have been prearranged between the four of them.
I find this really pathetic to say that it's absolutely right to take minimum fuel and then go in the same post with "spanish ATC is rubbish etc"...what does it say about the ability to anticipate. If you show up with the same fuel in STN and MAD....what does it really say about your "situational awareness". Once again, the question is more what you manage to do with your fuel and anybody can blame ATC...but everybody who flies in Europe with such an extensive spanish network knows it as well and has to take this into account. It's no big news. Spanish ATC has probably been consistent with their usual performance, nothing unusual. Yes spanish ATC doesn't give any direct but I find this as pathetic to pretend to foresee ATC with 3 plots on TCAS...
I still find strange that it's a "non-event" to declare Mayday. A mayday clearly means "I was not able to foresee what's coming, I need help and can't deal with the normal procedures and course of actions with the fuel I've left".So to say, I've not been able to either uplift the amount of fuel I needed or to take the appropriate decisions relevant to the amount of fuel I uplifted. How come the FR crew were in a more difficult situation than anybody else that night?
If Mr McNamara says something then it's absolutely right. Being a PR person in an airline just shows how much you don't know regulations and reality of the job...not even taking into account that it might not even be close to reality. You divert and you burn 69 minutes in the hold to end up in a mayday situation. Is it being stupid or what? There is Reus, Alicante and BCN just minutes around...WTF. You divert, you would go stack for 69 minutes to mayday when there are loads, loads of good opportunities available. If this is true then it's time to raise other questions.
Anyway, despite blaming spanish ATC, regulators or captains themselves...FR will still have to explain how they don't manage to anticipate all this as much as the other airlines did if it's all the same. I'm still amazed that people can find normal to use a mayday...
Found on an internet WX website... TAF LEMD 261700Z 2618/2724 16012KT 9999 FEW050
TX34/2618Z TN19/2705Z
BECMG 2619/2621 VRB05KT
TEMPO 2618/2624 SHRA SCT040TCU
PROB40 TEMPO 2618/2623 VRB15G25KT TSRA SCT040CB
BECMG 2709/2711 24010KT
PROB40 TEMPO 2710/2718 SHRA FEW040TCU=
Tienetti - as I said in #163 and MrH in #209, the chances of getting the truth here are slim. However, I do not have the time, but if you have it would be useful to list the callsigns involved (from FR24), when they entered the hold at MAD, when they departed for VLC and how long they held at VLC - any chance?
Assuming all 4 aircraft left the hold with a predicted fuel state of CMR at DA following an approach (they would surely not have 'committed' to MAD?) they should have been nowhere near a MAYDAY from what you describe ie "no aircraft has been kept over VLC more than 4 minutes" so it is apparent there is more to 'discover'.
If you follow the tracks, you will se that none of this 2 traffic has been holding in MAD (only some vectors, let's say 10 minutes MAYBE,probably less) RYR9VR has done 1 orbit in VLC to let the LAN land before them, while RYR5389 ALREADY declared emergency when still descending to FL130 inbound MILOS (still pretty far from VLC) I am not sure about the others
I can see only another RYR (2054 from PMI) that diverted to VLC and another went to ALC
Thanks Tienetti - still shrouded in Irish mystery, though. IF they left for VLC after no more than 10 minutes they would have CMR plus about 700kg at a guess. Once round at VLC then does not put them near Final Reserve.
It is understood that if you are being 'messed around' and LOOK as if you are going to be below FR, then a PAN call is required, and in Spain it is sensible to make that a MAYDAY to guarantee the correct resonse. There has, I feel, to be more.
My local rag reports the Spanish ASA are to investigate why three Ryanair pilot called for mayday landings. Not four for some reason. They diverted from Madrid to Valencia and after stacking at Manises for 50, 68, and 69 minutes called Mayday. All three had normal minimum fuel left on landing.
The Spanish want to know why only the Ryanair planes called Mayday---none of the other circling planes did. They could face a fine of 4.5 million euros and a ban from landing in Spain for three years.
And don't forget the long running and bitter disputes Ryanair can get into with Spain over airbridges,fees etc etc. Bit of score settling??
Ps forgive if this gets mangled. I'm involved with a war with my PC at the moment.Forgive me if this has been covered.
Only SLF, so walk in where angels fear to tread. But superficially if four Ryanair pilots found themselves in a bad place and all four called Mayday in a heartbeat that is reassuring, not scary.
There are many reasons I choose not to fly with Ryanair - but safety is not one of them.
Ryanair's standard report time for crews is 45 minutes before departure. Allowing for at least 5 minutes to log in to computer, read compulsory notices, print weather and flight plans etc, plus a 5 minute walk to the aircraft to be there at the latest, 20 mins before departure, in theory leaves 15 minutes flight planning time. For a four sector day that's less than 4 mins per sector !!!
Surely nothing to do with it ?........
PS
When reported, the IAA told me that there was no evidence / complaints from Ryanair pilots saying this wasn't long enough !
The -45min. reporting time is the minimum time you should report, does not mean you cannot come in a little earlier? And by the way the paper work is divided up between capt-f/o. Just hope the computer is working!
The -45min. reporting time is the minimum time you should report, does not mean you cannot come in a little earlier? And by the way the paper work is divided up between capt-f/o. Just hope the computer is working!
So because the company isn't providing enough time to properly brief yourself and the crew, you have to do it in your own time? I wonder if you would count those 15/30 minutes towards your max FDP and does RYR do that? How about when on minimum rest?
And I never divide my preflight planning between the capt and the FO, I do it together with the other one. Fortunately in my company a minimum time is decided upon together with the union so it is usually more than enough. IN the rare case it isn't, I can take extra time, I might have to tell them why I left late to explain away the delaycode, but it is always accepted as a valid reason.
Pre flight briefings are important, so is enough time to do it...
If these were the two associated callsigns on 26/07/2012...
RYR9VR aborted approach to LEMD at 20:12 at around 8000ft, right turn to 270°, then the one circle in the West at FL160, then climbed to FL240, landed behind LAN A340 at LEVC at 21:19UTC No holding of 60 minutes anywhere.
RYR5389 aborted approach to LEMD at 20:14 at around 8000ft, right turn to the Southwest, then the one wide circle in the West at ca. FL120, then climbed to FL240, landed at LEVC 21:25UTC No holding of 60 minutes anywhere.
The third one that may have been affected was RYR2054. Aborted approach to LEMD at 20:10 at around 5500ft, right turn to the Southwest°, then the one circle in the West at FL150, then climbed to FL280, landed at LEVC at 21:09UTC
Other traffic diverting LEMD to LEVC were LAN705, EZY1419, BEL3731, IBE36MY, AEA6138, IBS2491, however it does not look like a mess. Only, LAN705 overtook the preceeding RYR and EZY on approach, so most likely some reason to rush, too.
Last edited by threemiles; 19th Aug 2012 at 09:07.
I'll confess I've not read all the previous pages of the thread, so apologies if it's been explained.
If you rock up at MAD and there's TS's all over the place, airport shut, no-one making approaches no EAT's / "delay not determined", then it's entirely understandable to make the decision, early, to go to your alternate.
What I don't understand is the 60+ minutes holding. Why would you hold, to the point where you would be unable to return to your original destination, and then continue to hold to the point where you declare an emergency and land (legally) with final reserve? What was the thought process / rationale / plan in the hold? If you've flown a couple of hundred miles to your alternate there's going to be a decision point in the hold when you will be unble to return to your destination (if it's now miraculously CAVOK with "no delay" (at MAD...?) and in this case that would be long before the point of MayDay. I simple don't understand why they burnt so "low" in the hold when they were effectively now committed to the alternate. Something does not add up here.
Have I missed something?
Just skimmed through and I see BOAC has come to a similar conclusion. The above traces are very enlightening. No holding at all at VLC????
Poor use of English in the following - easily leads to misunderstanding.
Quote:
Having held over Valencia for 50 mins, 68 mins and 69 mins after their scheduled landing time in Madrid,
-that's straight from RYR's website regarding this (with my bold emphasis). It's time from diversion initiation at MAD not holding over VLC - so case closed!
I've just skimmed through this thread. All I can say is thank goodness things were not like that in the run up to my retirement in 1998. Captains were captains and were given a degree of autonomy. I really feel for you people today.
My son is about to join the industry. He made the decision himself to become a pilot: there was no push from his old dad. I wish him and his future colleagues the very best - they will need it.
"Two Virgin Atlantic passenger jets issued emergency alerts on the same day this year because they were running out of fuel. Air Traffic controllers dealt with a total of four low-fuel emergencies at Stansted Airport, Essex, that day - including a Mayday call.
Two were Virgin 747s, which can carry 451 passengers each. They needed priority landing after flying from America, according to an investigation by the Exaro website.
Virgin Atlantic denied that the planes - named Jersey Girl and Hot Lips - issued maydays. They had been diverted from Gatwick because of severe winds. A passenger on Jersey Girl said: 'To see so many fire engines on landing made me realise it could have been bad'.
On the same day, an Embraer 190, which can carry 114 passengers, was diverted to Southampton and put out a mayday over fuel.
The revelation comes as Spanish authorities investigate Ryanair for three low-fuel maydays in Valencia.
There have been at least 28 cases of UK passenger airlines declaring low-fuel emergencies in the last two years while flying to airports in Britain, the Civil Aviation Authority has revealed. Three were mayday calls made in the last five months of this year. Destinations included Heathrow, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham".
Bearing in mind that Ryanair aircraft are registered in Ireland, I presume that none of their aircraft were involved?
