plane crash in Lagos Nigeria
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An investigation is under way, but in difficult conditions as darkness falls, says the BBC's East Africa correspondent Will Ross.
An investigation is under way, but in difficult conditions as darkness falls, says the BBC's East Africa correspondent Will Ross.
I'm no pilot but in that situation I can only imagine it's a case of "Keep her up as long as I can, try to find a clearing". Is the entire area as densely populated as it looks or could it be they were aiming for a clearing but sadly fell short?
It's called "stretching the glide" - and one of the first lessons in flying is "Don't try it!"
With no power, the only way to "keep her up" is to swap airspeed for altitude. With two negative consequences.
1. The worst is that below a certain speed, the wing stalls and you drop like a rock with virtually no control. = smoking hole in ground.
2. Assuming you maintain enough speed for control, slowing up to "keep her up" is still exactly what will cause you to fall short. Slowing the plane up lengthens the time required to get to your "clearing" - but doesn't substantially increase the time you have available (since lower speed means less lift, so you sink just as fast - or faster). = landing with some control but well short of the clearing.
Any aircraft type has a known "Best Glide Speed." Go faster than that and you won't glide as far - and go slower than that and you also won't glide as far. If you can't reach a safe landing spot at best glide speed - you can't reach it at any other speed, either.
Lots of unknowns still - but I suspect if total power loss occurred, the crew simply ran out of altitude before they ran out of obstacles. Sully himself would tell you he and his passengers were very lucky that the city over which he had his dual engine failure had a nice big wet runway right through the middle.
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 4th Jun 2012 at 03:24.
Pattern is full
Couldn't have put it any better myself. All you journos and non flyers - read what Mr Pattern writes. There are no 'strings' that you can pull to stretch the glide. That's why in the old days on little aircraft we always aimed to land a third of the way up the runway on a PFL. You can bring the touchdown point back with drag but you can't stretch it if you're already flying at the optimum L/D speed.
Couldn't have put it any better myself. All you journos and non flyers - read what Mr Pattern writes. There are no 'strings' that you can pull to stretch the glide. That's why in the old days on little aircraft we always aimed to land a third of the way up the runway on a PFL. You can bring the touchdown point back with drag but you can't stretch it if you're already flying at the optimum L/D speed.
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If they were configured, there probably wasn't a whole lot of "stretch" available, low energy state, no thrust....wings zig-zagging (rocking?), could be attributed to edge of the stall, trying to reduce the forward momentum in attempt to minimize impact...
Last edited by ironbutt57; 4th Jun 2012 at 04:25.
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Couldn't have put it any better myself. All you journos and non flyers - read what Mr Pattern writes. There are no 'strings' that you can pull to stretch the glide. That's why in the old days on little aircraft we always aimed to land a third of the way up the runway on a PFL. You can bring the touchdown point back with drag but you can't stretch it if you're already flying at the optimum L/D speed
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yes, pattern is full is quite right...can't stretch a glide
I would like to know what configuration the plane was in (flaps/gear etc)
one could think fuel exhaustion...but there was a post crash fire reported
one can think of fuel starvation (boost pumps on we hope)...however, if the crew had been crossfeeding and forgotten....well, that is one way to lose an engine
indeed, I will go out on a limb and say: crossfeed and run both engines off one tank, run tank dry and both engines go out...oops...even with fuel in the other tank
so...that's my theory for now
I would like to know what configuration the plane was in (flaps/gear etc)
one could think fuel exhaustion...but there was a post crash fire reported
one can think of fuel starvation (boost pumps on we hope)...however, if the crew had been crossfeeding and forgotten....well, that is one way to lose an engine
indeed, I will go out on a limb and say: crossfeed and run both engines off one tank, run tank dry and both engines go out...oops...even with fuel in the other tank
so...that's my theory for now
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pattern is full:
And, within gliding distance, and severe clear in an area not known for lots of great weather in the winter.
Lots of unknowns still - but I suspect if total power loss occurred, the crew simply ran out of altitude before they ran out of obstacles. Sully himself would tell you he and his passengers were very lucky that the city over which he had his dual engine failure had a nice big wet runway right through the middle.
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Additional Eyewitness Accounts
An eyewitness, Collins Chukwukanne, who lives within the area, said they noticed the Dana plane swerving in the air from Pipeline area towards a church, End Time Gospel Ministry International.
According to him, “we were all confused and tried to run when we noticed that the plane was coming down.
“But at a point it tried to climb up again but unfortunately one of its wings got entangled in a mango tree and broke off, while the plane caught fire.
“As the wing fell off the body, the remaining part of the plane crashed into a two-storey building beside the tree then into yet another building and then into a factory before the nose finally crashed into the church.
“An explosion followed immediately after and the whole place was set on fire. Some of the residents of the affected buildings ran out but others were not so lucky.”
Collins said immediately the incident happened, “we started calling all emergency lines but there was no positive response until around 4.00 p.m. when the first rescue team came.”
Meanwhile, another resident in the area told The Guardian that they tried to stop the fire but it was too severe.
“We were seeing roasted bodies falling off from the tree and the building. It was a horrible disaster and I pray never to witness it again.”
It was however unfortunate that the location of the disaster did not make the rescue operations any easier. The access routes were too bad for vehicles to pass. Even trucks with rescue equipment could not easily be moved into the area.
A resident, Bode David, who flayed the emergency team for coming late to the scene, said some of the affected buildings could have been saved.
Another eyewitness said that he was out with his friends at the Powerline when they sighted the plane approaching and noticed that it was unusual flight.
“It was unstable like your driving a car and swerving its steering. It was coming down and about aiming at the near-by Longe Hospital. But before it got there, it picked up again. But soon it started coming down again. It was one of the wings that touched a mango tree and the plane caught fire mid-air and crash-landed into the building. That was around 2.30 p.m.
“We were calling security number 112 among other numbers but they were just speaking grammar. They did not come until around 4.00 p.m. for an incident that happened before 2.30 p.m. If they had come on time, this building (pointing) wouldn’t have burnt completely. They came late.” he said.
Policemen first arrived. “We were actually disappointed because in a situation like this, we expected the Fire Service to make the first response. After the police, we heard sirens approaching and about 30 minutes later, the Fire Service water came,” David said.
http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/index...nal&Itemid=559
According to him, “we were all confused and tried to run when we noticed that the plane was coming down.
“But at a point it tried to climb up again but unfortunately one of its wings got entangled in a mango tree and broke off, while the plane caught fire.
“As the wing fell off the body, the remaining part of the plane crashed into a two-storey building beside the tree then into yet another building and then into a factory before the nose finally crashed into the church.
“An explosion followed immediately after and the whole place was set on fire. Some of the residents of the affected buildings ran out but others were not so lucky.”
Collins said immediately the incident happened, “we started calling all emergency lines but there was no positive response until around 4.00 p.m. when the first rescue team came.”
Meanwhile, another resident in the area told The Guardian that they tried to stop the fire but it was too severe.
“We were seeing roasted bodies falling off from the tree and the building. It was a horrible disaster and I pray never to witness it again.”
It was however unfortunate that the location of the disaster did not make the rescue operations any easier. The access routes were too bad for vehicles to pass. Even trucks with rescue equipment could not easily be moved into the area.
A resident, Bode David, who flayed the emergency team for coming late to the scene, said some of the affected buildings could have been saved.
Another eyewitness said that he was out with his friends at the Powerline when they sighted the plane approaching and noticed that it was unusual flight.
“It was unstable like your driving a car and swerving its steering. It was coming down and about aiming at the near-by Longe Hospital. But before it got there, it picked up again. But soon it started coming down again. It was one of the wings that touched a mango tree and the plane caught fire mid-air and crash-landed into the building. That was around 2.30 p.m.
“We were calling security number 112 among other numbers but they were just speaking grammar. They did not come until around 4.00 p.m. for an incident that happened before 2.30 p.m. If they had come on time, this building (pointing) wouldn’t have burnt completely. They came late.” he said.
Policemen first arrived. “We were actually disappointed because in a situation like this, we expected the Fire Service to make the first response. After the police, we heard sirens approaching and about 30 minutes later, the Fire Service water came,” David said.
http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/index...nal&Itemid=559
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Africa is lot like Marmite: you either love it or hate it.
A number of years ago, I myself used to fly out of Nigeria (plus various other countries in West Africa) and am big fan of the place - it certainly beats the sandpit! - and I'll be very interested to see if the (notoriously incompetent & corrupt) NCAA can investigate this without significant external help, if at all?!
For the less worldly-wise amongst us, you might like to click on the following link to see a larger-scale map (of the one below) showing the truly huge size of Africa.
For the less worldly-wise amongst us, you might like to click on the following link to see a larger-scale map (of the one below) showing the truly huge size of Africa.
Last edited by Old King Coal; 4th Jun 2012 at 07:39.
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Found this years ago illustrating best L/D. The speed varies a bit with configuration and wing loading.
Glider Performance Airspeeds
Glider Performance Airspeeds
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Apologies, slightly off topic;
@Arfur Dent "That's why in the old days on little aircraft we always aimed to land a third of the way up the runway on a PFL."
This is a very interesting point. As a PPL student I take on board all of the sound advice I can get. A veteran pilot told me recently to learn to think "what could go wrong here?" and (prepare to) act accordingly. An example he gave me was when approaching a runway with plenty of room consider landing one third down the length of the runway, an engine failure at the last moment suddenly won't be so bad.
@Arfur Dent "That's why in the old days on little aircraft we always aimed to land a third of the way up the runway on a PFL."
This is a very interesting point. As a PPL student I take on board all of the sound advice I can get. A veteran pilot told me recently to learn to think "what could go wrong here?" and (prepare to) act accordingly. An example he gave me was when approaching a runway with plenty of room consider landing one third down the length of the runway, an engine failure at the last moment suddenly won't be so bad.
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IF the plane was flying too slow the last few 100 feet, it is no wonder. The guys in front saw no options any more, and in order to keep the impact speed as slow as possible they reduced the speed to close to stalling. Desperate basic human survival instinct may have been taking over from thousands of hours training. I would not even contemplate how I would have been reacting in a comparable hopeless situation. Even not with 23000 safe hours logged.
We have been trained in survivable scenarios, training for approaching death is senseless.
I never had any fear at my work, not even after reading reports about terrible aviation accidents, I always could "think" myself out in time from the chain of events when playing the scenario in my head.
But there are a few in which no one could have saved the day like with JAL123. Not good to think about this for too long as a prof, I lost a colleague who did and he lost his licence first and later his life to the bottle.
At least the last part of this flight looks like one with no options, hopefully we will ever learn how they got there and who or what was the cause.
We have been trained in survivable scenarios, training for approaching death is senseless.
I never had any fear at my work, not even after reading reports about terrible aviation accidents, I always could "think" myself out in time from the chain of events when playing the scenario in my head.
But there are a few in which no one could have saved the day like with JAL123. Not good to think about this for too long as a prof, I lost a colleague who did and he lost his licence first and later his life to the bottle.
At least the last part of this flight looks like one with no options, hopefully we will ever learn how they got there and who or what was the cause.
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one could think fuel exhaustion...but there was a post crash fire reported
I'm obviously not implying that fuel starvation is what actually happened, just that we can't rule it out simply because of there being a fire afterwards. Fuel starvation is a common cause of multiple engine failure but is definitely not the only possible scenario.
Has any confirmation been made yet as to whether this was a takeoff accident with an inability to return for a safe landing?
It makes a difference in the "what-if" scenarios that are being bandied about (bird strike, dual engine failure etc.).
A couple of pictures of the RH engine have shown up (mostly frontal views) but only the reverser showing on the LH engine.
I'm waiting to see more if anybody comes across some.
It makes a difference in the "what-if" scenarios that are being bandied about (bird strike, dual engine failure etc.).
A couple of pictures of the RH engine have shown up (mostly frontal views) but only the reverser showing on the LH engine.
I'm waiting to see more if anybody comes across some.