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Old 26th Apr 2012, 12:44   #61 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Every time I climbed into a Sim (military) the instructor had been there before me and put a fair number of the switches/dials/levers in the "wrong" positions.
Big smack on head if not picked up by me.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 13:10   #62 (permalink)
 
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-sigh-

At 10,000 feet, if you have Pressurisation issues i.e., the press warning, then STOP CLIMB - Tell ATC - mayday if you will, consider: continuing the flight at that level FL100 or divert or go back. "we`re unable above FL100". Pan-pan-pan if you like, most advisable - Mayday, if you want so long as MSA is ok and FL100 is momentarily ok, Traffic, important, obviously ATC will give you a new squawk, probably, might even be 77. simples. But don`t go sailing up to cruise alt where TUC will get you. How come all the pax got the message and put their masks on but the crew did not - it did not seem to click. There is an an SOP.
Don`t climb.- and if you have to get back down again and, needless to say, get onto oxygen be as quick as possible. There is no oxygen drill in this whole flight, except from the cabin & pax who are more switched on than most. How much evidence did the crew need - "whats that?!" "Press bell/siren/noise"- "ok, stop climb, don oxygen masks and look for a lower than FL110 level, MSA? Pan or Mayday, job done - also one would be aware of what traffic is around and where it is

- again.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 13:14   #63 (permalink)
 
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Gents, before we get into an engineer's vs pilots switch responsibilities, it should be noted that for the most part maintenance manual procedures are just that.

I.E they are procedures written for us maintainers to use, and very often are written with our safety in mind, hence switches do get left in positions other than normal operating position.

For example, we generally do not leave ground spoilers armed, but pilots do,
we do not leave thrust reversers armed, but pilots do. I could go on, but as others have said, ultimately the flight crew are responsible for doing their checks.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 13:27   #64 (permalink)


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Reading some of the comments on this thread, and others, I can't say I'm tempted to throw the old 'Flightsim pilots' comment, as there are a load here who would probably be downchecked by Microsoft.

This really is a joke. In my current lot, we always laughingly say that when the 'Bus comes back from a quick MOT and oil change, if any setting is where it was before, it obviously relates to something that hasn't been checked. That's the way it's been for all my airborne life, but so what?

It's not up to the ground crew to set the flight deck up. It never has been, nor (pray God) will it ever be. Anyone who assumes every setting is going to be the way they left it is someone who has no business being there in the first place, or who has very minimal experience of real life. Switches and settings the way they were before? Before what? Quite a few would be in the wrong position for departure, as they would have been set for an approach and landing. Whose 'fault' is that then?

If an angineer has sat in the seat, do you not think to adjust it again to suit you? Or do you hit something solid, then blame the engineer because you weren't able to reach the controls?

Sympathies, as before, to everyone who suffered from this dreadful (and avoidable) tragedy. However, like it or not, the blame (as has been properly proven) lies front left and front right.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 15:55   #65 (permalink)
 
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Hardly worthy of a response but yet I must.

By your way of thinking, pilots should be perfect, every time, all the time. As has been proven time and again, they aren't. They are human, fallible and flawed. If they weren't, systems like EGPWS, TCAS, configuration warnings, stick shakers and many, many others would not be needed. Neither would regulations - we'd only need one - thou shalt not crash.

You must be a great deal of fun to fly with - being so perfect and all.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 16:04   #66 (permalink)
 
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"By your way of thinking, pilots should be perfect, every time, all the time. As has been proven time and again, they aren't."

That's way God made checklists.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 16:45   #67 (permalink)
 
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A little drift, but think it's worth a mention.

An old captain I used to work with many moons ago would always make sure his F/O could locate and operate the press contol panel in the correct fashion by touch/feel, no eyes allowed, his point being, vision/smoke/stress issues during flight, he wanted to know his F/O could operate panel blind.

He has long retired now, but not forgotton by many.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 17:23   #68 (permalink)


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"Hardly worthy of a response but yet I must.

By your way of thinking, pilots should be perfect, every time, all the time. As has been proven time and again, they aren't. They are human, fallible and flawed. If they weren't, systems like EGPWS, TCAS, configuration warnings, stick shakers and many, many others would not be needed. Neither would regulations - we'd only need one - thou shalt not crash.

You must be a great deal of fun to fly with - being so perfect and all."


Obviously my CRM must be bad, because I never seem to be able to get my point across here.

No, we're not all perfect. I'm far from perfect, which is why I give so much credit to the right seat.

My whole point is that nobody is perfect, so to expect your steed to be delivered from engineering with the config perfect is as dumb as hell.

Just don't get some of you people. Nobody is perfect, that's my basic point. I'm sure as hell not, but nor is anyone else, that's why I take it as basic fact that I will need always to carry out standard checks.

Not bloody hard, is it?
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 19:08   #69 (permalink)
 
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Reminder

As it has slipped back down the thread, let me remind you:

There is NO EVIDENCE that the engineer left the PMS at MAN
There is evidence that he probably didn't
There is NO EVIDENCE that the aircraft took off with the PMS in MAN
There is evidence that both Audio selectors were at MASK
There is evidence that Both engine bleed switches were OFF
There is evidence that the PMS was AUTO at impact
There is evidence that the green manual light was out at impact

What does that indicate to those of you who know the system?
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 21:00   #70 (permalink)
 
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At the airline I was working for at that time (B737NG fleet), there came an order after the accident that we had to use the pilot´s preflight and shut down checklists to set the switches after maintenance. Now some rather complacent pilots had the opinion that because us engineers set the switches, they wouldn´t have to check for themselves.
The order would be ok if it was for the purpose of creating another line of defence against mistakes (another layer of cheese), but it will be absolutely be no help if the pilots then think that we should set up the cockpit for them.

Edit: Spelling

Last edited by MD11Engineer; 26th Apr 2012 at 21:37.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 21:05   #71 (permalink)
 
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Aviation Safety Suffers Further Setback Following Helios Conviction -- HOOFDDORP, The Netherlands, April 26, 2012 /PRNewswire/ --

I think this is related
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 23:55   #72 (permalink)
 
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Ten Years for Alan Irwin....Insane

No I don't know the guy...but I know many like him and I am apalled at the thought he was charged, let alone convicted....

During my Apprenticeship as a 17yr old it was a "FAIL" to not have Power On checklist switches set correctly before putting power on an aircraft...No-one assumes anything when it comes to safety...let alone something done by someone else that has not been observed and cross checked...So how a non aircrew member can be made responsible for a Cockpit Switch is simply insane...pullng the wires off...now that is an offence

Recently I have been told I must be more tolerant of "Southern European Culture"...Probably better simply not to go there anymore....

Airsnoop...any chance of some more info/evidence of what you are implying...PM will do...

BTW...I always thought the Pressurisation Horn went off at 15,000ft....but maybe confusing different aircraft/regulations....
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 05:15   #73 (permalink)
 
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Wasn't a SwissAir crew jailed after they departed an Athens (old airport) wet runway, due to extreme amounts of rubber at the rollout area? This was 10-15 years ago, I think. The people making these judgements are very misguided...it seems, in Greece, someone always gets it in the end.
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 06:05   #74 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
This was 10-15 years ago, I think.
More like 33 years ago! It occurred on the 08th October 1979.
At a trial in 1983 the Captain and First officer were found guilty of multiple charges including manslaughter with negligence, causing multiple bodily injury, and obstructing air traffic. The Captain received a sentence of 5 years and the First Officer 2.5 years. After an outcry from IALPA they were released on bail, and an appeal resulted in the prison sentences being substituted by fines.
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 07:45   #75 (permalink)
 
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Wow time flies! Thanks for the correction.
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 08:20   #76 (permalink)
 
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Yes Indeed

Hello Idle reverse Yes I can confirm I am the EAC Geordie engineer from the good old days.

Last edited by TOON737; 5th May 2012 at 14:03.
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 08:22   #77 (permalink)
 
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GO TO ABAT4t2's LINK

Have just read the link ABAT4t2 introduced above - please go to it, read it, and take action before you find yourselves in a Greek prison.

Time for all of you who fix or fly into Greek airspace to go to your top management and get them to decide whether it's really worth it.

A last thought in this post - can someone name and shame the judge as her decision is detrimental to air safety and is a latent condition that could be causal in a future accident
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 09:00   #78 (permalink)
 
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Alan aquitted in Cyprus

Bigfrank Remember Alan Irwin prosecuted in a Greek court had already been aquitted in Cyprus as it was concluded that the same action and/or omission did NOT contribute to the accident is this not a case of double jeopardy?
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 09:17   #79 (permalink)
 
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Cyprus Court

Not exactly TOON, after a full and proper investigation by the Cypriot Police, the Prosecutor decided that there was no case against Alan so he was not brought to court.

The problem now is that because he wasn't even tried, he wasn't aquitted by another Court so still has to face the full might of the Greek legal system.

This is why he needs the full and determined backing from all in the sane side of aviation.
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Old 27th Apr 2012, 09:19   #80 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
No I don't know the guy...but I know many like him and I am apalled at the thought he was charged, let alone convicted....
Likewise. This just bonkers.

As an aside, I don't really buy the 'lots of holes lined up' idea on this accident. In my experience the 737-300 pressurisation can be glitchy anyway, especially if you are MELing single pack. In other words I've had several occurances of failure to pressurise. Regardless of switch positions the crew did not check and then got confused by the warnings. The first is flight crew error and the second is poor training. Either way the flight ops management / training department have to shoulder some blame.

Alan Irwin is NOT at fault. The judgement is an outrage and a direct threat to every aviation professional. There are .. what? over 350,000 members of this site. How about we DO something about it?
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