Avoiding venus...
Thread Starter
Avoiding venus...
The Air Canada Boeing 767–333 (registration C–GHLQ, serial number 30846) was operating as flight ACA878 from Toronto, Ontario, to Zurich, Switzerland. Approximately halfway across the Atlantic, during the hours of darkness, the aircraft experienced a 46–second pitch excursion
The rest is here - TSB report
Although some will certainly make great use of "The FO initially mistook the planet Venus for an aircraft but the captain advised again that the target was at the 12 o'clock position and 1000 feet below" it still doesn't show great airmanship.
The rest is here - TSB report
Although some will certainly make great use of "The FO initially mistook the planet Venus for an aircraft but the captain advised again that the target was at the 12 o'clock position and 1000 feet below" it still doesn't show great airmanship.
Some pretty good analysis and info about fatigue in that report.
Anyone who does shift work has probably experienced sleep-inertia. It can be very disorienting.
Worth reading.
Anyone who does shift work has probably experienced sleep-inertia. It can be very disorienting.
Worth reading.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Africa
Age: 57
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The f/o must be one gungho fly by the seat of the pants ace with lightning quick reflexes, superb at hands on manual flying! In his mind, do not trust those electronic gizmo like TCAS, EPGWS...they are always giving false indications. Can blame him as he was probably still in dreamland and may still be in dreamland even when fully awake.
In my experience, if one wants to take a " controlled " nap, I always make sure the seat is retracted full back and reclined back with the pilot fully strapped with seat belt and shoulder harness so that he/she does not accidently interfered with the controls in case of sudden reaction to nightmares or agitation. I had one guy who woked up suddenly with a jerk, kicking the rudder and his hands flailing across to the thrust levers!
In my experience, if one wants to take a " controlled " nap, I always make sure the seat is retracted full back and reclined back with the pilot fully strapped with seat belt and shoulder harness so that he/she does not accidently interfered with the controls in case of sudden reaction to nightmares or agitation. I had one guy who woked up suddenly with a jerk, kicking the rudder and his hands flailing across to the thrust levers!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatigue in Air Canada
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - AVIATION REPORTS - 2011*- A11F0012
What is interesting but sad, is that the Relief Pilot who was to operate the return leg, ZRH-YYZ, was deadheading in the back. Air Canada, it seems, are trying to save a few bob, as a DHD only attracts 50% of the pilot's hourly rate.
Increasing shareholder value, while at the same time sacrificing flight safety has to be a major concern for those pax travelling Air Canada!
Comments?
What is interesting but sad, is that the Relief Pilot who was to operate the return leg, ZRH-YYZ, was deadheading in the back. Air Canada, it seems, are trying to save a few bob, as a DHD only attracts 50% of the pilot's hourly rate.
Increasing shareholder value, while at the same time sacrificing flight safety has to be a major concern for those pax travelling Air Canada!
Comments?
Last edited by publius; 17th Apr 2012 at 02:15.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having spent many years on shift work in the pharmaceutical industry I can confirm that 'sleepiness' can create some pretty weird "illusions". Actually I'm surprised to read that a sleeping pilot can have such rapid access to controls on waking.
From the report:
Soooo.....being an airline pilot AND having small kids at the same time is inevitably going to cause fatigue problems??? Well I agree entirely but what can we do?
Before he had children, the FO's normally slept 8 hours per night. After having children, the FO normally slept approximately 6 to 7 hours per night, between 2300 and 0600, which could often be interrupted when the children required care. Often, the FO would take a nap early in the afternoon for an hour in an attempt to make up for lost sleep. The FO followed a normal sleep pattern during the 2 non–working days prior to the occurrence. The night before the occurrence, the FO was able to obtain nearly 8 hours of rest with some child care interruptions before waking at approximately 0600.
The really important bit is not to sleep too long. A lot of people think the longer you sleep the better. With controlled rest this is a dangerous assumption. It is extremely important that the nap be no longer than forty minutes. Sleep inertia may (I emphasize may) also have played a role in the Air India Express disaster. I have done a great deal of night flying over recent years and my experience is that a few minutes napping can be extremely helpful, but it needs to be carefully monitored.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 34
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best quote is off Yahoo saying that "The Air Canada pilot was apparently suffering from "sleep inertia" -- the stupor that follows a long nap -- when he sent the plane plunging some 400 feet in 46 seconds, throwing those not wearing safety belts out of their seats."
I'll remembed that insane VS next time I'm landing the Ikarus...
I'll remembed that insane VS next time I'm landing the Ikarus...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aside from the serious issues of fatigue, it makes me feel fell much happier that as SLF I always have the belt on during cruise. (Despite what my wife thinks!)
Lurking....
Lurking....
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Similar 'mistakes' made in the maritime world, where Venus is taken to be the stern light of another ship (when slightly above the horizon, a ship close by!).
Less dramatic consequences, of course
.
Less dramatic consequences, of course
.
Isn't it more likely to be Sirius - the brightest star in the sky - which often seems to be changing colour as it rises in the East and is therefore more easily confused with an aircraft?
Originally Posted by JW411
I had an old friend who was a Wop/Ag on Lockheed Hudsons in 1941/2. He actually opened fire on Venus off the coast of Holland one night. He missed.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 62
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is an sfo?
Seriously though I don't know anything about Air Canada's SOPS but surely they mandate a couple of minutes before an officer who has been sleeping is allowed to take control? This incident is just another marker in the long fatigue debate! Anybody for a 3rd pilot on certain flights?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 633
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Venus in the East?
There are some very sensible comments that note that Venus is currently in the West in the evening. That's true, but this event took place in January 2011, when Venus was rising in the East ahead of the Sun in the morning.
