Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Take off with snow on wing

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Take off with snow on wing

Old 12th Apr 2012, 12:38
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Russia
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you are angry about this kind of airmanship and airline management AND you have twittеr (and even if you don't that's the reason to sign-up for it ), then RETWEET:

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?sou...rl.com/d96xm26

Text to be retweeted in this link: RT @aeroflot officials claim it is OK to takeoff with snow on the wing, disregarding FCOM and SOP procedures VIDEO tinyurl.com/d96xm26
UUUWZDZX is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 12:41
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I still have that burning lesson in me from being told by airline managenent that the Captain is a captain and makes decisions (some right and some wrong)

However, we do look to place some limitations on those decisions being answerable to a higher judge (after the fact) After all we are not operating completely ad-hoc in flying.

Immediately in a case like this I look to the SOP provided to him in the cockpit. If he is within the SOP then it's purely hindsight about good or bad decsicion making (food for PPrune). If he is outside the SOP it's up to the airline to offer him a chance to explain.

If the SOP is wrong or in some cases I'm familar with (not even available) than its a enforceable regulatory function to correct with the operator.

In this case I've seen enough to feel it's the latter
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 12:51
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If blowing snow off the wing is so effective why not use giant blowers/fans to do so before taxiing out to the runway? That way you could see if the wing was clean and whether there were any remaining sticky patches where ice may be lurking which could then be treated; or is this too simplistic an idea?
DX Wombat is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 12:58
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I realise that you're not the devil!

Sabena,are you a first officer?if so, i believe the day you will change seat,yoour perspective may change...
De facto, I've been spending the last six years in the left seat of the A320 and yes, my perspective has changed to what it is now.
Only time i refused an aircraft was a night flight in europe with anti ice valve dispatched in the closed position and obvious icing enroute.
I dont write the MEL nor the DDG.
Well, I've done it twice in those six years. And once even with a "MELable" defect. I don't feel good about taking an A320 with the nose wheel steering inop, even if the MEL allows me to! (Can't understand that's a MELable item with fare-paying pax. ). Didn't fancy explaining the pax that it was now ok to depart after first having returned to gate twice to try to get it fixed.
It may not seem so but Im quite fun to fly with and i often helped the CC cleaning the aircraft in short turn arounds to make the turn around slot,so you see im not the DEVIL white gloved captain you may think,i take account of my airline and my passengers confort /ontime performance,but my final goal is the flight safety.
Well, I'm the first to realise that discussing by posts on PPRuNe is not an ideal way to communicate. Having to miss the body-language and intonation in speech is a handicap! I don't think we're that different after all. Perhaps we would get along if we could have a beer together, but I don't get to China very often . BTW, can we swap salaries, please ? And I wasn't thinking you were the devil. (Just one of his apprentices . Hey, just kidding, really!)
...a COO who could actually think in 256 shades of grey as opposed to the usual #000000 and #FFFFFF
Wow, that's a nice quote and exactly the point I was trying to make. A situation is almost never completely black or completely white. For instance: would I consider departing like the Aeroflot A320 did with the same contamination and the same weather? The answer is NO WAY, unless... I was sitting in the A320 on the apron in Kabul and the airport was about to be conquered by an army of Afghan Al Qaida soldiers. I would sure consider it in that case! See? Never say never and (almost) nothing is completely black or white!
sabenaboy is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 13:16
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
not pretty but also not such a brainer you discuss here. its just snow which gets blown off , the very few of us here which earn their money with sitting in the cockpit more than once made a take off with some snow on the wing or the tail .
What a load of BS. Pure ignorance.

I hope that my family NEVER gets on an aircraft with you sitting up front.
bizjetbus is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 13:30
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: earth
Age: 38
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
to the wombat...Remember the Scandinavian Airways MD80 that went down shortly after takeoff when the clear ice - near invisible to the crew broke off and got sucked into the engines....

yeah you cant always see the ice as it turns out.
cptkris is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 13:58
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 47
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What a load of BS. Pure ignorance.
here an american airlines 737 takes off with some snow /slush on the wings/airframe


call them all ignorant and go by train- we will respect your decision.

like said , not pretty but not such a brainer as long its just loose snow . its a good idea to at least check by hand if not solid ice is under the snow, in this case of course de-ice.

the rest is a discussion for disgusted chairman experts and balcony spectators

cheers gents !
aerobat77 is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 14:08
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Around the World
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You just don't get it, aerobat, do you? And that's why you should not be in command of an aircraft. No "cheers"
69flight is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 14:14
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@Aerobat77

"Type II fluids are "pseudoplastic", which means they contain a polymeric thickening agent to prevent their immediate flow off aircraft surfaces. Typically the fluid film will remain in place until the aircraft attains 100 knots or so (almost 200 km/h), at which point the viscosity breaks down due to shear stress. The high speeds required for viscosity breakdown means that this type of fluid is useful only for larger aircraft. The use of type II fluids is diminishing in favour of type IV. Type II fluids are generally light yellow in color."
source: wikipedia

The AA 737 in your video has almost certainly been de-iced before departure. Modern de-icing fluid is designed to shear off before a certain speed and will take some snow laying on top of it with it when shearing off. This AA crew were most probably well within the published holdover time for the type of weather and fluid they were dealing with!
I think you have a lot to learn about de-icing.
sabenaboy is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 14:14
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: CYZV
Age: 77
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I just watched the vid titled "Insane 737 take off Kphl in snow." What was insane about it?
pigboat is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 14:57
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: EDDF
Age: 52
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To the C150 aerobat 77 pilot...

Dear Aerobat pilot.

As a previous poster said, that AA aircraft was pretty sure deiced before. You can see the runback of the yellow fluid at about 0:35 when the aileron turns yellowish. Turn the clip on HD+Full screen and enjoy the modern marvels of a pseudoplastic type II fluid starting to shear off at a speed of about 100 KTAS

"not pretty but also not such a brainer you discuss here. its just snow which gets blown off"

The only not so pretty thing is, that you might have a pilot licence....


"the very few of us here which earn their money with sitting in the cockpit more than once made a take off with some snow on the wing or the tail"

No dude, i think the majority here never takes off with snow on the wing or tail. Thats because it is here the Professional PRUNE

"the vast majority of the others may not understand that its today a tough market and a small margin between doing something dangerous and satisfying your company. definitvly you will not get the job done by just reading the SOP,s . "

Wrong again aerobat. Especially in a tough market one mistake will take down the whole company. Standart operational procedures are exactly how you get the job done. Not by just reading them as you said, but also executing the SOPs as they are supposed to.

Talk to your chief pilot and tell him that your SOPs are not good enough to get the job done the way the company is satisfied. Show him the video of "blown away snow" and how cool that was and how much you would have saved money instead of having it wasted for deicing. Also you might add, that you are operating close to the margin of doing something dangerous on a daily basis to make the ends meet in this tough world. I am sure that some fellow PPRUNErs are also interested in, if you got the P45 and what his verbal reply was
warmkiter is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 15:18
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 47
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As a previous poster said, that AA aircraft was pretty sure deiced before. You can see the runback of the yellow fluid at about 0:35 when the aileron turns yellowish. Turn the clip on HD+Full screen and enjoy the modern marvels of a pseudoplastic type II fluid starting to shear off at a speed of about 100 KTAS
pretty right , and because of that regulations call for a contamination free aircraft latest at rotation speed. that was the case at the aeroflot a320 as well the 737 and , like the company stated correctly, nothing unlawful happened. so what ?

the whole discussion is dump because the russians did not take off with a contaminated wing, they just started the take off run with it.
aerobat77 is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 15:21
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: CYZV
Age: 77
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
the whole discussion is dump because the russians did not take off with a contaminated wing, they just started the take off run with it.
Ya need a pretty sharp knife to split hairs I'll tell ya.
pigboat is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 15:42
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sentul
Age: 55
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry to seem naive, but is there any chance that the aircraft had indeed been deiced but had dry snow on the upper surfaces due to dry snow that had just fallen prior to takeoff? They could have just be within the hold over time and reckoned that they still had sufficient protection as evidenced by the ease the dry snow slid off.
Sampan Angkasa is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 15:50
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: EDDF
Age: 52
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There are no naive questions. Just ask.

No, thats not possible. The holdover time is expired when the time is over. These times are given for light and medium precipitation rates. It is also over when there is accumulation of snow or ice on the wing. Both cases require new deicing.

Besides Anti-ice is like gel, its liquid. There is no "dry snow" on a liquid gel. It will be wet and has to be removed again.
warmkiter is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 16:42
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aggregating some marginal gains.
Age: 45
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok, important question. Was the aircraft de-iced, within the allotted time frame? and if so/or not so, can this be verified? (Verification is a BIG issue here) It is an essential point to the entire argument, because depending on the result, should, under certain conditions, this be revised?
99% of us say we would not go with that on the wings (me included). But if it was de-iced, this surely raises serious issues about de-icing that perhaps have been previously overlooked.
2EggOmelette is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 16:54
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Third planet from the sun
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok, important question. Was the aircraft de-iced, within the allotted time frame? and if so/or not so, can this be verified?
Here's the answer!

I think member RA44471 contribution 1 and contribution 2 to this thread are very valuable.
sabenaboy is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 16:58
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aggregating some marginal gains.
Age: 45
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cheers Sabenaboy, i missed that one this time round.
2EggOmelette is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 17:13
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: .
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Various quotes from Airbus. Either from FCOM or Airbus cold weather ops.

An aircraft ready for flight must not have ice, snow, slush or frost adhering to its critical
flight surfaces (wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers and rudder)

When removing ice, snow or slush from aircraft surfaces, care must be taken to prevent it
entering and accumulating in auxiliary intakes or control surface hinge areas, i.e.
remove snow from wings and stabilizer surfaces forward towards the leading edge and
remove from ailerons and elevators back towards the trailing edge.

No aircraft should be dispatched for departure under icing conditions or after a de-icing /
anti-icing operation unless the aircraft has received a final check by a responsible
authorized person. The inspection must visually cover all critical parts of the aircraft and be performed from points offering sufficient visibility on these parts (e.g. from the de-icer itself or another elevated piece of equipment). It may be necessary to gain direct access to physically
check (e.g. by touch) to ensure that there is no clear ice on suspect areas.

Aircraft contamination endangers takeoff safety and must be avoided. The aircraft
must be cleaned.
To ensure that takeoff is performed with a clean aircraft, an external inspection has to
be carried-out, bearing in mind that such phenomenon as clear-ice cannot be visually
detected. Strict procedures and checks apply. In addition, responsibilities in accepting
the aircraft status are clearly defined.
If the aircraft is not clean prior to takeoff it has to be de-iced.

Why de-ice/anti-ice on ground? The aircraft performance is certified based upon an
uncontaminated or clean structure. If the clean aircraft concept were not applied, ice,
snow or frost accumulations would disturb the airflow, affect lift and drag, increase weight
and result in deterioration.

It must always be remembered that below a snow / slush / anti-icing fluid layer
there can be clear ice.

fuel added to the aircraft during the current ground stop, adding
(relatively) warm fuel can melt dry snow with the possibility of re-freezing.

My favourite airbus quote:
Ice and snow due to ground precipitation, or overnight stay, should be totally
cleared before takeoff, regardless of the thickness. Otherwise aircraft is not
certified for flying.

Ensure that all the contaminants are removed from aircraft surfaces.


So make of all this what you will but it seems fairly clear to me. All of the above quotes are taken directly from airbus publications.
one post only! is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2012, 17:18
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sabenaboy, did your captain take into account the fact that the fuel would be much warmer than the OAT and that the outer tank fuel would warm up even more in case of extended ground ops due to the heated fuel being returned from the IDG's?
PENKO is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.