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Old 11th Apr 2012, 16:57   #101 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: hampshire
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unbelievable video in this day and age..criminal in my view.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 17:11   #102 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Given that a large portion of people on PPRuNe appear to hate it when a passenger (sorry - SLF) or other non-pilot tries to comment on some of these matters,
Read the name of the forum, not just the acronym.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 17:13   #103 (permalink)
 
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People here are so judgmental its ridiculous. "If its not done our way its clearly wrong" attitude. Russians have experience in deicing pure and simple - how many western crashes were there due to icing? Too many to count! How many in Soviet Bloc? Ya I thought so! We'll see what the outcome of the UTair investigation will be, so again lets not jump to conclusions.

If you watch the video, you'll clearly see at the end of the wing, some snow mechanically brushed off. Obviously the crew is not kamikaze and checked for ice underneath the snow. Some of you will then jump and say well what about the leading edge??? Well Shirley, if they checked the end of the wing they will check that area too, don't you think? I would and I'd wager they did too!

Look all I'm saying here is to be objective and cautious. Yes the Bus manual wasn't followed, but at the end of the day its up to the Captain's discretion. For all you know he could have 20 years experience flying An-2s in the Kamchatka area while you were still learning how to tie your shoelaces. Just because you were taught to deice when there is snow on the wings, does not make you correct.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 17:22   #104 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
but at the end of the day its up to the Captain's discretion
It's not up to his discretion. Wording in FCOM and SOP is different.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 17:38   #105 (permalink)
 
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Ignorance is bliss for some people Gunner! you can't defend the indefensible and that kind of evidence is pretty damning in my view. But hey! lets see what the Russian investigators come up with shall we!!??
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 18:05   #106 (permalink)
 
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As someone posted earlier, if you stopped the video at the moment of rotation & asked 99% of pilots "what happened next" ? the answer would be in the negative sense. That this didn't happen, is down to luck, not good judgement.
As a Commander of an aircraft conducting public transport operations, your primary duty is to exercise good judgement.
QED, dereliction of duty in the most basic sense.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 19:01   #107 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Look all I'm saying here is to be objective and cautious. Yes the Bus manual wasn't followed, but at the end of the day its up to the Captain's discretion.
That's to prevent or in the event of an emergency, not to cause one.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 19:03   #108 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Yes, in Russia we are used to fly in severe winter.
Yes, in some cases, take-off with snow powder on the wing is acceptable.
Yes, in some cases, deicing will deteriorate aircraft perfomance.
Yes, Tupolev154 was more winterproof
(on my opinion)

No. This case is unique.
No. I can't understand captains judgement.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 19:13   #109 (permalink)
 
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xxgunnerxx - perhaps you should add to your post that you are SLF, who knows very little about aircraft operation, in order for people to put that opinion in perspective?

... and seeing as your post history is 99% about Russian operations, I don't think you live in Toronto, either
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 19:13   #110 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
If you watch the video, you'll clearly see at the end of the wing, some snow mechanically brushed off.
No sir, what you probably see is the warm fuel in the outer tank melting the snow sitting on top of that tank. In the 320 fuel is circulated to cool the generators. The surplus of this fuel is returned to the outer tank. Or it might simply be fuel that was already much warmer than OAT when it was uplifted, again, melting the snow sitting on top of the tank. Whatever it is, ice melting on top of the fuel tanks is a sight very well known to any busdriver.


Green guard, nice googling, but what is the Inuit word for 'snow sitting on top of the wing being melted by the IDG-cooling fuel'?

Warmkitter below, excellent post, but may I point out that the wing was NOT clean on liftoff. There was still some snow and lots of ice, you can see bits of it fly off after liftoff.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 19:35   #111 (permalink)
 
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Location: EU
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xxgunnerxx

Quote:
Look all I'm saying here is to be objective and cautious. Yes the Bus manual wasn't followed, but at the end of the day its up to the Captain's discretion. For all you know he could have 20 years experience flying An-2s in the Kamchatka area while you were still learning how to tie your shoelaces. Just because you were taught to deice when there is snow on the wings, does not make you correct.
But at the end of the day procedure in the Airbus manual was not followed, as you point you. Just because he is captain doesn't make him king of all decisions. Captain's best interest surely should be safety and not following procedure doesn't spell safety to me. Unless it was an emergency situation, I've never heard of an emergency prompting crew to get airborne asap and skip de-icing.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 19:35   #112 (permalink)
 
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I know, clean looks different. Just wanted to point out to these armchair quarterbacks that an asymmetric lift situation, due to uneven breakoff of ice and snow, will be guaranteed if not deiced!
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 20:15   #113 (permalink)
 
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Checkboard, Did my post hit a couple of your nerve endings? If you have some genuine rebuttals, please post them. I've never hidden anything and where my current place of residence has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

PENKO - If that were the case, the area free of snow would be much greater and more uniform.

warmkiter - "...it doesnt change the aerodynamics". It doesn't if it comes off during the takeoff. I don't see you being worried when there is water on your wing, because you know it will be flying off during the takeoff. Same thing with dry snow. I think you are talking about the age of the UTair pilots. I was referring to the SU crew of this video.

pudoc - That is not the issue, everybody here can acknowledge that its idiotic to ignore it, however. The greater issue that was brought up is taking off with snow on the wing and if it safe to do so.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 20:28   #114 (permalink)
 
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UPDATE TO THE STORY. Author of the video just said (see comments to the video on youtube, in russian) that de-icing procedure was NOT performed. The only thing that was done - ground personnel used a broom with a long handle (no joke) to remove contamination from the very edge of the wing -- that's all. He also said that other aircrafts were undergoing de-icing properly, there was a queue apparently for this procedure. Flight crew of this flight decided to skip it.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 20:34   #115 (permalink)
 
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Location: London,England
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Quote:
Maxangle, yeah the snow was gone on the right wing. What about the left wing? Sucks if its still there, doesnt it. These guys deiced, but still crashed. Guess what was the cause?
It was probably gone from the other wing as well but don't worry, my comment was made with my tongue firmly in my cheek as most of the pros on the board will have realised.

"Clean wing" is gospel in our airline and anyone who deliberately flouts the rule would expect a P45 (boot firmly applied to arse in the direction of the door for those not it the UK) and rightly so.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 20:47   #116 (permalink)
 
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1. How the hell do you know its going to be blown off before liftoff?
2. Is it going to do so symmetrically?
3. How big is the increased drag until its blown off?
4. Does this affect your ASD/TOD?
5. What is below the dry snow?
6. The wing has different temperatures due to fuel, sun, wind etc. So does the snow. How does this effect?

If you want to become a testpilot, do so. Flying commercial is not a place to operate at the very end of the envelope.

By all respect, in airline biz there is no room for speculations, no dry-snow-will-blow-off-during-TO procedures and no room for morons who think so.

With that attitude, knowledge and adherence to procedures you are demonstrating here i dont give you any change to survive in any airline. If i am wrong just give me the 2 lettercode so i can avoid it.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 20:50   #117 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Russia
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Just for those, who didn't see the other topic (Link). The official reply from Aeroflot (by deputy director of operations and director of air safety) "There is no violation - snow has been blown off instantly and therefore definitely didn't affect aerodynamics and safety. Safety is our first priority ".

Link (in russian)

How foolish...


I will use this statement when contacting EASA, IATA and russian CAA.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 21:13   #118 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Russia
Posts: 40
I wouldn't bother "round robin" the CAA or anyone, they will have read it by now.

Probably not the moment to get TOO excited.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 21:22   #119 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto
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warmkiter: One word - Experience. This crew wants to live as much as you do. You really think they came up with this method out of thin air? I can't answer your questions, but maybe the crew can. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here to show that just because you were taught to de ice doesn't make everyone else wrong because they do things differently!
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 21:30   #120 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
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No Gunner, the crew cannot answer those questions.
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