Sooo, You Want to Fly for Korean Airlines Do You?

[Keylime]

One other issue that is pertinent to the military pilots entry into KAL is that they automatically get three(3) years seniority over the pilots coming in from civilian backgrounds. I have never understood why the Korean Air Pilots Union puts up with this. Instead of sh%tt*ng on the foreigners they should be striking until this stops. Having operated with the Korean Air Farce pilots when I was in the military I can tell you they ain't that good.

[VaniosLenos]

When my company for 12 years closed, I had job offers from 2 U.K. carriers and KoreanAir. I have read all threads available, and since the people appeared friendly at the screening in Seoul, I ignored all advices of colleagues and decided to join with an open mind, and an open heart, mostly due to the commuting contract.
It was generally ok during the first few weeks. Later on you meet some of the trainers. I got the impression they were looking down on me, but I was trying to blend with their culture.
One day, on the way to the sim for fixed base simulator, my wife calls from back home, telling me that our son will have to make an appendix operation.
Arriving at the sim centre I tell the Korean trainer about it, and that I can not do the sim session until everything with my kid was ok.
The trainer tells me not to worry, its just a tick in the box these fixed base simulators, and its not an evaluation of any kind...
Despite my unwillingness to do a sim session that day, he insisted saying that it will create problems to scheduling, and that we can repeat it tomorrow if unhappy, etc etc..
So I did the session, to a good standard given the circumstances. The trainer debriefed me on items such as not remembering a standard call, or not pointing out where the highest point on the Jep chart is. Then he picks up the phone and calls somewhere talking in korean.When he finishes the call he tells me that tomorrow some other trainer will come.
I go back to the hotel, in the mean time my kid's operation was ok, and much releived, I go the next day to the next fixed base sim session (!), to see some chief trainer on the 737 fleet.(!) We sat at the briefing room asking me all sorts of questions from the books. I even remember him asking me how much was the highest outside temperature that you can have in order to put live animals in the holds (!) I felt humiliated. I was wondering if he was trying to prove something to me, or if I had to prove to him that I knew all manuals by memory like a computer.
It was there when I realized that, all those things written about KAL are true to the last letter. Someone told me when I was there that these guys will take any opportunity to prove to them selves or to whoever else that they do a good job by chopping expat people. Never mind the human aspect, they dont care! He was 1000% right.
The session later on was a formality. The next day I received an email from the agent telling me that they are terminating my contract.
After a few seconds of reading the email, I felt relieved. I regreted not paying attention to all those saying 'do not join KAL', but I was surely relieved. So I went back home without a job. A few months later I joined a Gulf carrier, thinking that at the end of the day I was lucky to leave KAL before it really had bad impact on me.

[Keylime]

VaniosLenos

Sorry to hear what happened to you. I have heard this story many times. Only the names are changed. Spread the word. May they soon be grounding airplanes due to lack of flight crew. Then maybe things will change. Otherwise, the only way there will be change is when they have another Stansted or Guam at the expense of a lot of innocent people sitting behind these fools. IF this makes you feel any better, recently eleven(11) KAL pilots went to a Chinese airline for interviews on the B777. Two were expat and nine koreans. All nine koreans failed the sim session. Seems they had to do a engine failure(V1 cut) with the TAC(thrust assymetry compensation) failed. Everyone of these ace aviators crashed. The only two who passed were the expats. How can this be? How can the BEST PILOTS IN THE WORLD fail??? Must be a racist interview process.

[Langkasuka]

KAL facing a slowdown?

Heard from reliable sources that KAL had lost some 30% of their cargo business in China.

Another more disturbing news is that their recent, unreported conflict with the big chaebol Samsung with respect to carriage of Samsung " ready as required " on time shipping of their products; apparently Samsung has sworned off using KAL services ever again!

There are rumours that many B744 expat pilots' contracts will not be renewed and people are scrambling to get an A320 rating to get a foot into Chinese Airlines currently paying much more flying the baby bus in the Chinese mainland.

[Keylime]

Heard from reliable sources that KAL had lost some 30% of their cargo business in China.

Another more disturbing news is that their recent, unreported conflict with the big chaebol Samsung with respect to carriage of Samsung " ready as required " on time shipping of their products; apparently Samsung has sworned off using KAL services ever again!

There are rumours that many B744 expat pilots' contracts will not be renewed and people are scrambling to get an A320 rating to get a foot into Chinese Airlines currently paying much more flying the baby bus in the Chinese mainland.

Langkauska.....your intel is correct. KAL is not renewing contracts for several 744 foreign captains(riff raff). Meanwhile their recruiting is interviewing and hiring foreigners they would not even have considered 4 years ago. Take the cutltural/language difficulties and mix with less experienced captains and you have a self-fulfilling prophecy. (We told you these foreigners were lousy pilots). In 2008 KAL was fined $200 million for price fixing of cargo rates along with some other airlines. They were also fined for similar practices down in Oceania. In 2008 even with the fine they still showed a small profit. The expats contract delineated a cost of living raise if the airline made a profit. NADA!! Contracts mean nothing. Remember these are ethical honest people you are dealing with. They constantly tell the contract pilots "a contract is a contract" (particularly when it is to their advantage).

Their less than ethical business practices are coming full the circle. The chickens may finally be coming home to roost. Well deserved.

[fdr]

USA!... USA!

haenjangkuk
That is why a expat is required to flights to the USA. With you'r thinking you will never advance

Free at Last

errr, not quite correct. There is not and never has been a requirement for a Foreigner/Weikukin to be on the crew list for any operation to any destination. There is no insurance aspect that requires a particular crew makeup. Not saying that it wouldn't be an advisable thing for the underwriter... just that it is factually false.

Delta Audit...? hmmm, entertaining reading, but the audit was not done by Dealta per se, it was done by experienced but unqualified auditors, and that is reflected in the quality of the document. The program there is actually far more dysfunctional than is noted on these pages, and Hanjuk's comments are pretty much in line with the delusional nature of the program in general. Human factors are a primary aspect of all incidents and most damage caused there, yet while there is a cookie cutter HF/CRM program in place, no party from the operators to the management apply such mechanisms.

The engineers are generally world leaders, I have more respect for them in general than most professionals in this industry. Having said that, occasions arise where they do get somewhat "excited", and that may have bent he case here. They are operating under the same punitive, viscious, nasty, rude, "false witnessing" environment that the foreigners lament about, and that Hanjuk is an apologist for.

My favourite story related to the abusive program there was the day when...

Argus goes to the office on monday morning, and is confronted about a flight he did on the sunday on an A300-605R, from SEL-PUS-SEL-PUS-SEL... He is told by the chief pilot of the fleet that he of all people should not have done what he had done, that it is shameful that his flying is so bad... etc etc, Argus approaches me and asks if I will look t the data of his flight. I do. Perfectly stable, elegant flight. Chief pilot has in the meantime as is usually the case, asked the FO why he didn't demand a go around for such a "bad approach", to which he answers that he had demanded many times that the foreign devil go around, to no avail, foreigners don't listen etc.. (actually I do, and I speak korean....) Subsequently, the chief pilot is asked my me if he would like to check the date of the event... (local vs GMT...) and he then realises he is after the pilot of the same flight number, for the preceding day, not Argus. Fine. except, what about the FO's comment about screaming at the foreign devil who ignored his plaintive wailing, teeth gnashing and renting of cloth, and "continued to land despite the warning that the approach was unstable, horrible, incompetent... usual foreign pilot bad skills etc"? Nothing.

All parties in that dysfunctional program have a jackboot placed at varying levels of force on the back of their necks, including Hanjuk & Co. The good news is, the foreigner can retire and go somewhere else, that does not have that corrosive situation, Hanjuk, and the rest of his gang are married to the program. I have many HanKukIn friends, really good people, some are even ex F-5 Majors, the most dangerous thing in the air, normally. Best local friends were engineers. Erratic behaviour is hardly a surprise in a program that is doing 110% in day VFR conditions due to the interminable threat from above.

Caveat Emptor

[fdr]

facts

The audit was initiated after the crash of KAL 801 in 1997 in Guam. Lose your life but don't lose face.

KEYLIME

KE801 was a CFIT related significantly to chronic fatigue/dysrhythmia and the failure of cognitive processing, coupled with poor practice, loss of SA, and finally a level of hesitancy to react to conflicting signals. Finally, the inertia that exists in decision making within a punitive culture in relation to conducting a go around... The company did actively change their position on this last matter as a consequence of 801, and the proactive direction by Dave G., and Bill H., in Mar 2000.

"Lose your life but don't lose face" is somewhat simplistic for the 801 event. I think that the MD11F bingle showed more of the face issue, where the poor FO knew he was getting dead, yet remained fairly passive until 2.3 seconds before he ended up dead. He was the only guy on the flight deck who understood what was happening, IMHO, as indicated by his comments at the commencement of the upset.

[fdr]

Stanstead Captain

I42

The workup to Stanstead is interesting, in relation to the Captain. on the immediately preceding flight, the SS Capt had operated into the en route hub in southern CIS states, and diverted towards the south. On departure from the divert APT, the Capt got confused with his left and right hands... and turned the wrong way. Fairly exciting, it is a one way departure due to lumpy bits. Lots of screaming going on, shades of the VOR approaches later flown two times sequentially into Milan on the B744F with the German DH pilot screaming at the crew... who were using ILS mode, both times... (became the great GPWS approach aid, descend until the pax screams or the GPWS goes off incessantly...). The SS Capt was under fairly great pressure as the company really had had enough of his activities by the time he took his face plant into the english countryside. (The German pilot was sufficiently traumatised after Milan's disneyland to decline the invitation to return to work, smart move).

The SS CVR transcript is chilling reading and harrowing listening. The engineer accepted his fate before impact, the Captain died relaxed, didn't have a schmick as to what was happening, and the poor FO was still tuning a DME. The engineer who had re-racked the INU got a close up encounter with the consequences of the process.

Making mistakes is a human characteristic; the "Zero Error" expectancy by this company short circuits all aspects of operational safety, and results in a pathologically dysfunctional program. I personally consider that the Koreans can be very professional in any aspect of endeavour, but the system precludes that, and the background xenophobic response makes it a hard task to alter the position, if anyone cared enough to bother, after the abuse meted out by the company and it's misguided supporters.

[fdr]

breaking his arm...

while injuring his arm patting himself on the back

Keylime

reminds me...

true story, of how the system debases the process...

B744F crew arrive at ANC, to fly to ICN. New "Cruise Capt" FO has joined crew. The crew brief and proceed to the aircraft, and the new guy sits in the RHS for the departure. the Ferringhi Capt offers the sector to the new guy, who politely refuses, as his left arm is actually broken. I kid you not. His LH arm is in a cast. Capt thinks about this for a short time, and decides for the well being of all parties that they will fly the sector as a 2 pilot crew, and put the poor Cruiser into the bunk.

Every one is happy.


Not so nice:

B777 newbie from Turkey does his final sector of the checkout. Fails. "Bad Capt, bad landing, cannot fly/land etc... last landing dangerous, bad technique...". Sage nodding of heads of DLCP, KCASA guy, and FO. The poor old Johnny turk finally enquires that they are referring to the last landing? "yes, dangerous, bad technique, no good etc...", "are you referring to the auto land we just did 1/2 an hour ago?..."

10/10 candidates failed selection for a simple common factor, in the screening simulator.... "didn't know Korean procedures..."

A welcoming program. For those that decide not to go there, well saved, sir. For those that go and walk, congratulations, for those that stay, you have my respect for your fortitude.

[zondaracer]

In 2008 KAL was fined $200 million for price fixing of cargo rates along with some other airlines.

To be fair, British Airways and Virgin Atlantic were also involved if I remember correctly, amongst others. And recently, there was another price fixing case that came to light that involved quite a few more very well known international carriers, to include Qantas, BA, Singapore, AirFrance, KLM, Cathay, Emirates, Korean, and more.

[SRS]

FDR, you are right on the money. I am sure we worked together. It would all be amusing if it was not so tragic.

[Keylime]

To be fair, British Airways and Virgin Atlantic were also involved if I remember correctly, amongst others. And recently, there was another price fixing case that came to light that involved quite a few more very well known international carriers, to include Qantas, BA, Singapore, AirFrance, KLM, Cathay, Emirates, Korean, and more.

Zondaracer:

What part of "In 2008 KAL was fined $200 million for price fixing of cargo rates along with some other airlines" was not clear: The statement was more than fair, I just didn't name all of the other airlines. The point you missed was that KAL used this as a reason to "steal" the cost of living increase from all of the expat pilots. Bunch crooked bas&#rds!! Liars and thieves!!

[Ferret the original]

Interesting to read all the experiences. As an ex KAL B777 Captain I can verify many of the stories to be true. Although I had a great run through training and no online problems after 3 years I decided to get out before something bad happened. Unfortunately I watched as the operational standards got worse, I watched expats being blamed for local pilots lack of skill, I watched great operators crucified by the system of punishment. After 34 years in the industry with over 20000 hours I decided to get out while I still loved the job. Many of my buddies bailed at the same time.

If you choose to go to KAL all I can say is Watch your back and good luck!!