Sooo, You Want to Fly for Korean Airlines Do You?
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I've lived in Korea for the past 2 years and the above post sums-up Korean culture better than any other that I've seen. It is the same for them in every walk of life. They don't want things done correctly they want it done due to procedure. This is instilled in them during their formative years where they suffer the horrors of the Korean education system. They are incredibly nationalistic and proud as this is the first thing taught to them in schools and some possess a healthy disregard and fear of foreigners. That being said, they are in the minority these days and a lot of Koreans are great. The education system teaches students the answer rather than why it's the answer leading to a nation that don't question things, ask why or mistrust what they hear. A truly dangerous thought when put in charge of an aeroplane.
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a buddy of mine sent me this to think it over before applying there
Cultural Safety in Korean Air
Cultural safety in Korean Air using the data gathered by FMAQ in 1998. According to the FMAQ data, Dr. Helmrich and the research team believes that currently Korean Air flight crews do not believe the senior management respects their suggestions on safety. However, there are no data in correlation to the number of suggestions, if at all made by flight crews.
A representative aspect of the Korean culture is "Face" (for a lack of a better term). A person’s actions and thoughts are in direct correlation to the position he or she holds and demands respect simply because of the position. If a subordinate does not give respect to the person, then that person's face is lost. Therefore, respect is not earned by the superior but demanded, which causes the subordinate to be humble.
(Question) "Has anybody questioned an action or a decision which you believe to be detrimental to safety?" "If not, why not?" This is Korean Air's current culture. Culture is not the responsibility of any individual, and certainly no individual is able to change culture. There are roles and standards for individuals in any culture. It is difficult at best to change and/or remove wrong or unhelpful habits without the effort of all involved. It would be difficult to redirect the Korean culture, which would be more conducive to safety if the people involved expect others to do it for them.
As long as save face prevails over safety they're simply screwed. Needless to say any expat working there will be guilty by default regardless whether right or wrong. What a disgrace to the whole aviation world.
Cultural Safety in Korean Air
Cultural safety in Korean Air using the data gathered by FMAQ in 1998. According to the FMAQ data, Dr. Helmrich and the research team believes that currently Korean Air flight crews do not believe the senior management respects their suggestions on safety. However, there are no data in correlation to the number of suggestions, if at all made by flight crews.
A representative aspect of the Korean culture is "Face" (for a lack of a better term). A person’s actions and thoughts are in direct correlation to the position he or she holds and demands respect simply because of the position. If a subordinate does not give respect to the person, then that person's face is lost. Therefore, respect is not earned by the superior but demanded, which causes the subordinate to be humble.
(Question) "Has anybody questioned an action or a decision which you believe to be detrimental to safety?" "If not, why not?" This is Korean Air's current culture. Culture is not the responsibility of any individual, and certainly no individual is able to change culture. There are roles and standards for individuals in any culture. It is difficult at best to change and/or remove wrong or unhelpful habits without the effort of all involved. It would be difficult to redirect the Korean culture, which would be more conducive to safety if the people involved expect others to do it for them.
As long as save face prevails over safety they're simply screwed. Needless to say any expat working there will be guilty by default regardless whether right or wrong. What a disgrace to the whole aviation world.
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After reading this I will make sure that my friends and family members do not fly Korean Air. So I guess its only thanks to Boeing and Airbus for making such modern and advanced planes that there hasn't been a Pepsi logo in a smoking crater lately.
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Having lived in Korea, albeit working on the ground at Kimpo 20+ years ago, I know one thing:
Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.
I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!
Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.
I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!
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I just read about this incident (Korean A388 at Tokyo on Jul 21st 2011, engine pod strike) in the ME-forum.
Not hard to understand why these things happen in Korean after reading some posts of this thread.
What really worries me most, is the fact that this A380 returned to Seoul with only 1 hour delay. How thorough an inspection must that have been?
Not hard to understand why these things happen in Korean after reading some posts of this thread.
What really worries me most, is the fact that this A380 returned to Seoul with only 1 hour delay. How thorough an inspection must that have been?
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I lasted nine months. I ignored all the posts about the "issues" there, to my regret.
TEX JOHNSONS' buddy does not exagerate. I experienced most of the things he mentioned in my short tenure. YES, the commuting contract works like clockwork; YES, you get your requested days off each month; YES, the aircraft are well maintained and YES you commute in J/Y(at least while I was there).
BUT, I don't think most of us got into this business because our priority was a good commuting contract. I got and stayed in this business because it was fun; I enjoyed the cammaraderie and professionalism of my colleagues and I looked forward to going to work each and every trip.
KAL took all the fun out of flying and I dreded each and every month, that flight back to ICN. It was no way to live or work for me.
TEX JOHNSONS' buddy does not exagerate. I experienced most of the things he mentioned in my short tenure. YES, the commuting contract works like clockwork; YES, you get your requested days off each month; YES, the aircraft are well maintained and YES you commute in J/Y(at least while I was there).
BUT, I don't think most of us got into this business because our priority was a good commuting contract. I got and stayed in this business because it was fun; I enjoyed the cammaraderie and professionalism of my colleagues and I looked forward to going to work each and every trip.
KAL took all the fun out of flying and I dreded each and every month, that flight back to ICN. It was no way to live or work for me.
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How times have changed DCS99. The current generation are the most effeminate, scared and unintimidating men on the planet. More have had plastic surgery than been in fights.
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From haejangkook
From DCS99
Sorry to digress here and in no way am I advocating fistcuffs to sort out problems. It was a real incident I witnessed during my pub crawling days in Itaewon to ward off the depression and drudgerry of life in Seoul. Some big size American troops from the nearby Yongsan Base picked a a fight with some puny looking Nepalis. There were six Yanks and four Nepalis in the fracas; the end result, the four Nepalis ended up with minor bruises and all six Yanks were carted off in the ambulance to the hospital! I thought the alcohol had played tricks on my eyes but my drinking pals who were equally bemused, confirmed that the Yanks were beaten up real bad!
I left KAL not only because of all the sh*t that Tex Johnson and Keyline wrote about, I also had issues with some of the Alteon instructors who appeared nice on the surface but secretly doing the dirty jobs at their master's behest. protect essential is right on the money, life in KAL killed part of me.
The arrogant a***hole thought he could bully and push a puny Oriental around. So when the tables were turned, all sorts of baseless and inciendary accusation came about.
From DCS99
Having lived in Korea, albeit working on the ground at Kimpo 20+ years ago, I know one thing:
Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.
I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!
Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.
I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!
I left KAL not only because of all the sh*t that Tex Johnson and Keyline wrote about, I also had issues with some of the Alteon instructors who appeared nice on the surface but secretly doing the dirty jobs at their master's behest. protect essential is right on the money, life in KAL killed part of me.
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I did 5 years on the 744 with KE. They broke my contract twice, but who's counting? I also paid $500 for being 20 minutes late at report time, but that was my fault and I deserved it.
However all that has been said about the culture is true. I spent a lot of time on the flight deck with my FO and I might as well have been alone. A new FO would give me the brief, telling me what number course he had attended at Jeju, if he was married and how many kids he had, then shut up for the rest of the flight.
But don't judge the Koreans by KE. The pilots who work for KE are completely different to the man in the street, who would give you all his money and all his time if you looked like you would need it more than he did. They can be wonderful people and you will think that the Koreans who work for the airline are from a different planet altogether.
KE pilots are arrogant and ignorant, and if you listen carefully, they are arrogant about their ignorance, thinking that this proves their manhood or something. It is true that, despite all the outside influences on their culture, a Korean FO would say nothing to his captain to stop the airplane being flown into the side of a mountain.
A good airline culture will never replace the KE culture, despite accidents that have been caused by this. The new Jeju cadets have to pick up this same culture or else they will be frozen out.
The older Korean Captains hate the foreigners, but they hate the Jeju pilots worse.
They have SOPs but do not make the mistake of following them. Better to do what the Korean Captain tells you, no matter how stupid it might seem. The FOs will report every word you say to the Chief Pilot and they have a lot of influence on the foreign pilots, especially renewal of contracts. Some of them might appear to be friendly toward the foreign pilots, but if they truly were, their own people would have ostracised them. It is an act, designed to elicit information that can be used against you.
If you make a small error during your sim check, you can be summarily fired, but the same rule does not apply to the Korean pilot. Seniority seems strange at times, but it is all based on the pilots' date of appointment to the first squadron he worked at in the Air Force. And if the FO flew the F4, while the Captain flew C130s, the FO will be the real boss on your flight.
Don't expect them to honour their word, and don't expect to get anything more than you actually get, and enjoy the flying.
Oh, and enjoy the medicals!
However all that has been said about the culture is true. I spent a lot of time on the flight deck with my FO and I might as well have been alone. A new FO would give me the brief, telling me what number course he had attended at Jeju, if he was married and how many kids he had, then shut up for the rest of the flight.
But don't judge the Koreans by KE. The pilots who work for KE are completely different to the man in the street, who would give you all his money and all his time if you looked like you would need it more than he did. They can be wonderful people and you will think that the Koreans who work for the airline are from a different planet altogether.
KE pilots are arrogant and ignorant, and if you listen carefully, they are arrogant about their ignorance, thinking that this proves their manhood or something. It is true that, despite all the outside influences on their culture, a Korean FO would say nothing to his captain to stop the airplane being flown into the side of a mountain.
A good airline culture will never replace the KE culture, despite accidents that have been caused by this. The new Jeju cadets have to pick up this same culture or else they will be frozen out.
The older Korean Captains hate the foreigners, but they hate the Jeju pilots worse.
They have SOPs but do not make the mistake of following them. Better to do what the Korean Captain tells you, no matter how stupid it might seem. The FOs will report every word you say to the Chief Pilot and they have a lot of influence on the foreign pilots, especially renewal of contracts. Some of them might appear to be friendly toward the foreign pilots, but if they truly were, their own people would have ostracised them. It is an act, designed to elicit information that can be used against you.
If you make a small error during your sim check, you can be summarily fired, but the same rule does not apply to the Korean pilot. Seniority seems strange at times, but it is all based on the pilots' date of appointment to the first squadron he worked at in the Air Force. And if the FO flew the F4, while the Captain flew C130s, the FO will be the real boss on your flight.
Don't expect them to honour their word, and don't expect to get anything more than you actually get, and enjoy the flying.
Oh, and enjoy the medicals!
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Reading this thread is frightening when one considers they are sharing your airspace but it doesn't surprise me. One of the companies that I have worked for in Australia once had a contract to train ab-initio pilots for KE. The horror stories started there and it seems there was never much improvement after that.
Sounds like they were Gurkhas and nobody in their right mind picks on them.
Some big size American troops from the nearby Yongsan Base picked a a fight with some puny looking Nepalis. There were six Yanks and four Nepalis in the fracas; the end result, the four Nepalis ended up with minor bruises and all six Yanks were carted off in the ambulance to the hospital! I thought the alcohol had played tricks on my eyes but my drinking pals who were equally bemused, confirmed that the Yanks were beaten up real bad!
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"Sounds like they were Gurkhas and nobody in their right mind picks on them"......
.......nobody except our pathetic excuse for a government who conveniently forget the years of dedicated service put in by these guys and their families.
.......nobody except our pathetic excuse for a government who conveniently forget the years of dedicated service put in by these guys and their families.
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Tut tut
As it sounds like a story for a movie, but I do have to agree but I've come across there are places where the locals do seem to be more 'powerful' towards the foreigners be it in the west or east.
At the same time I have experienced for e.g. ATCs in the US do delibrately being uncooperative to the non-english speaking flight crews by saying along the lines of " .. sorry i can't understand you sir... This is America sir..." even when they understand clearly. It's a shame.
My view, if foreigner land are not as same as home and you expect to be treated higher or same way as in home, why bother leaving home then? Work in the US Im sure it's a great place to work and everyone speaks English and the work ethics are the best instead of whinging about foreigners. The grass is greener on the other side? I think its fair to say that.
At the same time I have experienced for e.g. ATCs in the US do delibrately being uncooperative to the non-english speaking flight crews by saying along the lines of " .. sorry i can't understand you sir... This is America sir..." even when they understand clearly. It's a shame.
My view, if foreigner land are not as same as home and you expect to be treated higher or same way as in home, why bother leaving home then? Work in the US Im sure it's a great place to work and everyone speaks English and the work ethics are the best instead of whinging about foreigners. The grass is greener on the other side? I think its fair to say that.
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I'm faculty at a Korean university. Two points to make:
1 - It is not about being treated like back home, it is about being treated equal to a Korean with the same skills and experience. Back home we all run under the same rules. One university in Korea pays Koreans 4 mil won, about 3 500 USD, to publish a paper in an international journal. Foreigners get 500 USD for the same thing. That would be illegal back home. And dont even ask about tenure for foreigners here....
2 - Change the names and job titles and you have the same examples from education and banking similar to those above.
1 - It is not about being treated like back home, it is about being treated equal to a Korean with the same skills and experience. Back home we all run under the same rules. One university in Korea pays Koreans 4 mil won, about 3 500 USD, to publish a paper in an international journal. Foreigners get 500 USD for the same thing. That would be illegal back home. And dont even ask about tenure for foreigners here....
2 - Change the names and job titles and you have the same examples from education and banking similar to those above.
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I feel its no use worrying about the "traveling public" because
there will always be Joe Qs and their families who will still opt
with KE no matter how appalling its record. The 1990s proved
that conclusively - its all about airfares and convenience.
there will always be Joe Qs and their families who will still opt
with KE no matter how appalling its record. The 1990s proved
that conclusively - its all about airfares and convenience.
What is even more amazing to me is that DoD (U. S. Department of Defense) books U.S. military and their dependents on KAL. As for the English, the only reason most of the KAL pilots have a Level 4 or better is because they have the profiles for the EngRish test. There was a very well known language company who walked away from a $5 million contract with KAL because they wouldn't allow KAL to administer the language test. Their reputation was more important than the contract. KAL now administers the test and NO ONE fails. An acquaintance at KAL was telling me about when he was safety pilot out of SFo-ICN. The captain had a level 5 on his license but after every ATC communication the F/O would respond in English and then translate to the captain in korean. Not one word of English was spoken on the flight deck by the captain. Gentlemen and ladies, they are flying in your airspace. The FAA knows of the problem and does nothing. Very political subject. Lose your life but don't lose face.