Foreign pilots warn about Turkish Airline in Danish news paper Politikken
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VIP's in Turkey
Indeed, when presented with a list of VIP's from ESB/IST recently, the Cabin Chief made the clarification that apart from the Kaptain, there were additional 6 VIP's on-board, one of them, a member of parliament.
In Turkey anyone can be a VIP, from security guards to virtually anyone who wears a tie and polished shoes. I do not mean to stir contention here, but the President of the Union in Turkey told THY management not so long ago, that the they did not and I quote: "have the faintest idea of how to run and airline. They have no idea not even on how a kite flies". end of quote. (Todays Zaman) July/2012
Most foreigners are not even approached or consulted on at least the lamest Q?, hey Kaptain, were your procedures any different from ours? is there something "WE" proud and imbecile local pilots can learn from your former procedures?
I mentioned before, and I remind the distinguish group of professionals again, THY and Turkey is a Chauvinist society. Nicolas Chauvin venerated Napoleon Bonaparte, Turks venerate their beliefs to an obnoxious degree.
By the way, I suggest future announcements in Turkish to be made by the F/A, so that way she is doing a fine job, "On Behalf of the Captain", not a mere F/O claiming to be the "Captain" when in essence they cannot understand the difference between "being", and/or "pretending to be".
In Turkey anyone can be a VIP, from security guards to virtually anyone who wears a tie and polished shoes. I do not mean to stir contention here, but the President of the Union in Turkey told THY management not so long ago, that the they did not and I quote: "have the faintest idea of how to run and airline. They have no idea not even on how a kite flies". end of quote. (Todays Zaman) July/2012
Most foreigners are not even approached or consulted on at least the lamest Q?, hey Kaptain, were your procedures any different from ours? is there something "WE" proud and imbecile local pilots can learn from your former procedures?
I mentioned before, and I remind the distinguish group of professionals again, THY and Turkey is a Chauvinist society. Nicolas Chauvin venerated Napoleon Bonaparte, Turks venerate their beliefs to an obnoxious degree.
By the way, I suggest future announcements in Turkish to be made by the F/A, so that way she is doing a fine job, "On Behalf of the Captain", not a mere F/O claiming to be the "Captain" when in essence they cannot understand the difference between "being", and/or "pretending to be".
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As a pilot flying for Turkish, I also recieve some VIP lists but it is just an info for the whole crew regarding who is on board. Do you need to do anything extra for VIP list ? NO ! It is just an info. So what is the point for your post ?
Some of you asked about FO selection in previous posts.
To be an FO you have to have a university degree and take the DLR(Deutches Centrum fuer Lutft- und RaumFahrt) test and Turkish HTA group test. When you pass both you are a candidate.
You have to have a TOEIC/TOEFL test score that is above limits.
Most of them take the type rating course in Airbus or CAE managed courses in EU.
To be honest there is place to go forward. Yes. But the company is on the move. A lot has changed since I joined the company.
It is not possible to change the direction of a big ship so quick.
The instructors receive training from Lufthansa Training (LFT) I think for the last 3-4 years. THY is paying for this process that an other eye is deciding regarding instructors. Also a lot of PIC training has been given by LFT.
Best Regards
Some of you asked about FO selection in previous posts.
To be an FO you have to have a university degree and take the DLR(Deutches Centrum fuer Lutft- und RaumFahrt) test and Turkish HTA group test. When you pass both you are a candidate.
You have to have a TOEIC/TOEFL test score that is above limits.
Most of them take the type rating course in Airbus or CAE managed courses in EU.
To be honest there is place to go forward. Yes. But the company is on the move. A lot has changed since I joined the company.
It is not possible to change the direction of a big ship so quick.
The instructors receive training from Lufthansa Training (LFT) I think for the last 3-4 years. THY is paying for this process that an other eye is deciding regarding instructors. Also a lot of PIC training has been given by LFT.
Best Regards
Any news of THY pay rise ?
Have heard 17% been banded about ?
Also that flight time limitations may revert to one ER 24 hr layover per month ?
Have seen lots of contracts issued longer tha one year, but only for non European licence holders, who I think are no longer being issued validations.
Just on the side. Got to love the bulletin warning about increased solar activity and the possible effects on fly by wire aircraft and navigation. No mention about the poor old passengers and crew !
Also that flight time limitations may revert to one ER 24 hr layover per month ?
Have seen lots of contracts issued longer tha one year, but only for non European licence holders, who I think are no longer being issued validations.
Just on the side. Got to love the bulletin warning about increased solar activity and the possible effects on fly by wire aircraft and navigation. No mention about the poor old passengers and crew !
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There was no legal strike but there was a legislation change which was going to be voted on this day of illegal strike.
Is it lawfull in your country that the union sends SMS messages at 11PM and says tomorrow we will all be sick and will not be fit to fly.
THY did send also SMS and mail saying that there is no legal background and people obeying this instruction will be fired.
All the pilots (including expats) were present for their flights but a lot of cabin attendants did not go to flying and beleive me only few flights were made that day from Istanbul untill afternoon.
I was going for my flight and the union did try to stop me from entering the airport. I sad to them "hey this is not legal. If there would be a legal strike things would have been different."
I think this video is prepared by the union which in my honest opinion did use innocent people for their interest.
The union could make other activities rather than not letting the aircraft fly.
I was reading a topic regarding cheap pilot utilization in Norway. There, the pilot union chief sad it is illegal to make a strike regarding this issue.
I am a pilot flying for THY and not a manager but I just wanted to reply so that you see this issue from both perspectives and not only unions.
Is it lawfull in your country that the union sends SMS messages at 11PM and says tomorrow we will all be sick and will not be fit to fly.
THY did send also SMS and mail saying that there is no legal background and people obeying this instruction will be fired.
All the pilots (including expats) were present for their flights but a lot of cabin attendants did not go to flying and beleive me only few flights were made that day from Istanbul untill afternoon.
I was going for my flight and the union did try to stop me from entering the airport. I sad to them "hey this is not legal. If there would be a legal strike things would have been different."
I think this video is prepared by the union which in my honest opinion did use innocent people for their interest.
The union could make other activities rather than not letting the aircraft fly.
I was reading a topic regarding cheap pilot utilization in Norway. There, the pilot union chief sad it is illegal to make a strike regarding this issue.
I am a pilot flying for THY and not a manager but I just wanted to reply so that you see this issue from both perspectives and not only unions.
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Very recently attended THY selection process. All six of us EU expats did not pass the sim phase, including three TRIs, one TRE/TRI and one Line Trng Cpt (all A320). Two clowns turned up, only one spoke some English and he said they were not flying any more but just SFIing. The very short brief: to fly manually, no FD, no AT, some turns and some approaches (the bird was allowed).
The sim was operated by the silent one (he would not reply to my radio calls), under supervision by the other one. The scene was Ankara, with Cu clouds placed on the final, one on each side: impossible to fly a stabilised approach. The repositioning was 1mile before the Loc at 8 miles, also for the single engine cases. Some of us were going around, some landing. No de brief, just the release in two days. Nice.
The sim was operated by the silent one (he would not reply to my radio calls), under supervision by the other one. The scene was Ankara, with Cu clouds placed on the final, one on each side: impossible to fly a stabilised approach. The repositioning was 1mile before the Loc at 8 miles, also for the single engine cases. Some of us were going around, some landing. No de brief, just the release in two days. Nice.
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Similar experience 4 years ago, after the Sim assessment I was actually a bit sceptical as to whether I wanted a positive or negative response 
In the end, the month during which they said they would respond passed (for me & numerous others) with NO response. I was actually quite relieved that they absolved me from making the decision to possibly reject them.
Count it as a lucky escape (although I do appreciate that it is difficult to see it that way until you find alternative employment)
In the end, the month during which they said they would respond passed (for me & numerous others) with NO response. I was actually quite relieved that they absolved me from making the decision to possibly reject them.
Count it as a lucky escape (although I do appreciate that it is difficult to see it that way until you find alternative employment)
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Birgenair Flight 301
I've just found this thread, so this ground may well have been covered already.
I flew for Birgenair (see wikipedia), a Turkish charter airline operating a 757 (among other aircraft) for a while in the 1990s. I felt at the time they would crash something fairly soon, and they did - the Flight 301 in February 1996.
The biggest single problem were the local captains, who were mostly accidents waiting to happen.
It's worth digging up the CVR transcript for Flight 301 to listen to the FO pleading with the captain to lower the nose and bring the TLs up from idle (the captain had a faulty ASI (blocked pitot) which was progressively reading higher as the aircraft climbed). The captain ignored him, lifted the nose higher and remained at idle until it was too late to recover. The aircraft stalled from around 8000 feet (from memory). The captain had also ignored the two serviceable ASIs.
I had a similar experience (among many others): Captain's ADC failed mid-Atlantic and the aircraft started behaving fairly oddly (oscillations in pitch). Other two sets of instruments normal. Captain stared at his instruments, which were behaving extremely oddly. After a short but decent interval (I had learned from previous incidents) I suggested he select alternate ADC. He said: "what's that?". I explained. He did, and the problem went away. He looked for ways of avenging this insult to his knowledge/abilities for the rest of the trip. The FO on the Flight 301 didn't intervene because he didn't dare - another problem for operations in that region.
I flew for Birgenair (see wikipedia), a Turkish charter airline operating a 757 (among other aircraft) for a while in the 1990s. I felt at the time they would crash something fairly soon, and they did - the Flight 301 in February 1996.
The biggest single problem were the local captains, who were mostly accidents waiting to happen.
It's worth digging up the CVR transcript for Flight 301 to listen to the FO pleading with the captain to lower the nose and bring the TLs up from idle (the captain had a faulty ASI (blocked pitot) which was progressively reading higher as the aircraft climbed). The captain ignored him, lifted the nose higher and remained at idle until it was too late to recover. The aircraft stalled from around 8000 feet (from memory). The captain had also ignored the two serviceable ASIs.
I had a similar experience (among many others): Captain's ADC failed mid-Atlantic and the aircraft started behaving fairly oddly (oscillations in pitch). Other two sets of instruments normal. Captain stared at his instruments, which were behaving extremely oddly. After a short but decent interval (I had learned from previous incidents) I suggested he select alternate ADC. He said: "what's that?". I explained. He did, and the problem went away. He looked for ways of avenging this insult to his knowledge/abilities for the rest of the trip. The FO on the Flight 301 didn't intervene because he didn't dare - another problem for operations in that region.
Last edited by Muchheavierthanair; 21st Sep 2012 at 18:16.
I Have Control
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Be fair to Turkish Aviation
Turkey, as with most Far East states, all Arabic countries, and all African nations plus the South and Central American countries, suffer from the same malaise of "Captain knows everything, do not interfere". A dangerous but prevalent non-CRM culture. Alitalia had accidents in the 90's relating to this problem as did Swissair.
So it is not fair to pick on the Turks alone. Turkey is a backward but developing country, and is doing its best to catch up with Europe, in aviation terms at least.
So it is not fair to pick on the Turks alone. Turkey is a backward but developing country, and is doing its best to catch up with Europe, in aviation terms at least.
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"Captain knows everything"
@Roy Hudd - I agree. Except that the problem is exacerbated (my estimate - very greatly) if the captain owes his direct entry to the left hand seat in a big jet to his previous senior rank in the air force, where for many years he was in a desk job. In countries where the military has considerable power and senior officers can demand jobs from the airlines (I saw this first-hand), then the authority gradient on the flight deck is just one problem of several (the others include lack of knowledge and ability). I don't think Swissair and Alitalia had this type of difficulty.
Last edited by Muchheavierthanair; 25th Sep 2012 at 03:28.
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Think you got it in 1, in my (fortunately short) time working for (another ) Turkish carrier I discovered 2 disturbing facts. . . . FO's will just let everything go to a can of worms confident in the knowledge that you (like the local Capts) will jump in at the first opportunity to salvage it all. . . how many times I asked "what ARE you doing ? you are PF & I don't recall saying "I have control" (although by this stage I usually had to anyhow by default)
The 2nd, & rather worrying, fact was, if you screwed up, NO WAY would they say anything. I had one slightly alarming incident where PM MUST have seen all was not well, when I finally noticed myself, & extricated myself from it, I did ask "was that OK for you ? " of course, it wasn't, so my next Q was " Why the F didn't you say something to me ? ? ? ! ! ! " well, no answer forthcoming, and that (unfortunately ) IS the answer. If operating PIC in Turkey, just assume you are single crew, & all will be OK thereafter.
The 2nd, & rather worrying, fact was, if you screwed up, NO WAY would they say anything. I had one slightly alarming incident where PM MUST have seen all was not well, when I finally noticed myself, & extricated myself from it, I did ask "was that OK for you ? " of course, it wasn't, so my next Q was " Why the F didn't you say something to me ? ? ? ! ! ! " well, no answer forthcoming, and that (unfortunately ) IS the answer. If operating PIC in Turkey, just assume you are single crew, & all will be OK thereafter.
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Well, the A320 fleet chief is reported to be very anti-foreigners inspite the request from above to employ pilots. So, he sends two expired, barely English understanding SFIs to send us all home. I am glad it finished as it did.
Roy, I disagree that THY has the right to go fru the mistakes others went fru before (kill people) in order to learn already known. CRM started developing in the sixties.......
Roy, I disagree that THY has the right to go fru the mistakes others went fru before (kill people) in order to learn already known. CRM started developing in the sixties.......
Royhudd
What swiss air accident in the 90s?
Certainly the Athens over run but that was in the 70s and the same time that a major British carrier was having lots of accidents and incidents.
Especially relevant was a management idiot who stayed in the job despite a move to chuck him out.
What swiss air accident in the 90s?
Certainly the Athens over run but that was in the 70s and the same time that a major British carrier was having lots of accidents and incidents.
Especially relevant was a management idiot who stayed in the job despite a move to chuck him out.
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Some confusion with the reality here, three recent FOs, all ex F16 Pilots, one F16 Instructor for 10 years, none enter as DECs, not allowed..infact there are two ex Generals flying as FOs as well, no CRM issues, quite decent blokes ( and women) really. If you look at the banking and investment system in Turkey as well as the growth in aviation, Biz Jet, Cargo and Pax it is difficult to describe it as a backward country, intact in many areas it puts Europe to shame. OK FTLs are severe but Pilots earn enough to have a really high standard of living compared to the punitive tax regimes in the EU countries. One of the new Scandic FO's described the NAS contracts as " worse than Ryanair" and came to Turkey.
Try working in Asia if you want bad CRM and Captain God syndrome.
Try working in Asia if you want bad CRM and Captain God syndrome.
