Crash-Cork Airport
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Please explain what your statement has to with Manx2. The pilots were not employed by Manx2 and the aircraft was not anything to do with Manx2 whilst operating the Post Office flights that required the seats to be removed. The owner of the aircraft made the arrangements for the Post Office flights, not Manx2. The operator of the aircraft was responsible for the Crew rostering and adherance to flight time limits, not Manx 2.
Flightline - Operator (Sub-lessor and AOC holder).
Manx2 - Ticket seller.
Flightline confirmed it had no contact with Manx2. Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com - The report confirmed this.
The CAA clapped them round the ears for acting like an airline when they were not, dressing Air Lada pilots up in Manx2 uniforms again trying to be like an airline.
In the weeks prior to the crash a third flight on peak days had been added on the BHD-ORK-BHD route.
Flightline who were the AOC holder provided charts, flight briefing facility's and rosters. Again they had no contact with Manx2.
Air Lada must have been the company who had agreed to the postal charter. That wasn't clarified in the report.
Beg's the question who was messing with the rosters when the third weekly flight was added? Air Lada? They couldn't they simply owned the aircraft and paid the pilots. Flightline were being used for there facilities and AOC. Manx2 (Citywing) is the real root of the problem in my opinion.
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I think it's highly immoral that Manx2 was replaced by Citywing. Those running it most likely knew they would not be portrayed in a good light and shut down before any compensation would have to be paid by them. My objection was not based on the legality of the operation, just the immoral business practices they used. What if they kill a J32 full tomorrow? Just shut up and come back as Citymanx? Manx3? Meanwhile everyone comes out smelling of roses.
Whe I buy a plane ticket I do so in te knowledge that here is a responsible person who risks jail if things go wrong on their watch an they are found to w at fault. When I book (and I NEVER would) with Manx2/Citywing, exactly who is the responsible person/post holder? Who's responsible and who is accountable?
Whe I buy a plane ticket I do so in te knowledge that here is a responsible person who risks jail if things go wrong on their watch an they are found to w at fault. When I book (and I NEVER would) with Manx2/Citywing, exactly who is the responsible person/post holder? Who's responsible and who is accountable?
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When I book (and I NEVER would) with Manx2/Citywing, exactly who is the responsible person/post holder? Who's responsible and who is accountable?
Manx2 / your travel agent etc. are just ticket sellers, and only regulated financially. There is no point getting angry at a small company just selling tickets (legally) - the law permits it.
If you believe the concept is immoral / open to abuse / misleading to the public (and I would not disagree) then the line of attack should be to the politicians / regulators who create and permit the framework.
Sorry Jack 1985 but I don't recall the report stating that "Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com - The report confirmed this." I'm certainly not going to go through all 170 odd pages just to find that particular sentance, but to my memory Air Lada (the aircraft owner) were castigated several times but Manx2 were only advised that their advertising led to the general public believing they were an actual airline. This has been corrected as advised a few posts back.
I get that some people don't like the Manx2/Citywing way of doing business but it's certainly not a new idea. in the late 90s (after my aviation career finished), I drove a coach for a well known National UK Coach Operator. The coach was in their livery, I was in their uniform but I wasn't employed by them and wasn't paid by them. I was paid and employed by the owner of the coach and was contracted with the coach to operate the services for the National UK Company. At that time, the National Company only had 1 coach and all of the other coaches were contracted to operate the services for them. That is no different to Manx2/Citywing getting a fully licensed Aircraft Operator to operate flights using the Manx2 name and in Manx2 livery and wearing Manx2 uniforms. It's all been done before.
I get that some people don't like the Manx2/Citywing way of doing business but it's certainly not a new idea. in the late 90s (after my aviation career finished), I drove a coach for a well known National UK Coach Operator. The coach was in their livery, I was in their uniform but I wasn't employed by them and wasn't paid by them. I was paid and employed by the owner of the coach and was contracted with the coach to operate the services for the National UK Company. At that time, the National Company only had 1 coach and all of the other coaches were contracted to operate the services for them. That is no different to Manx2/Citywing getting a fully licensed Aircraft Operator to operate flights using the Manx2 name and in Manx2 livery and wearing Manx2 uniforms. It's all been done before.
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I'm not going through another 240 pages again looking for the line but RTE have it here;
Spanish regulator 'contributed to Cork crash' - RTÉ News
The report said the flight captain was inadequately trained in the command role and was ill-prepared for the situation he found himself in on the day of the accident. The co-pilot's training was not completed.
Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com
Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com
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That made for a thought provoking scan, and it's now clear that there were previously unreported subtle but significant defects with the engine that contributed to the crash, along with a whole litany of errors, bad supervision, and many other issues that were not adequately addressed by the regulatory environment.
I will be reading it in depth at a later occasion, but not tonight.
The number of failings at all levels is scaring, and not what is expected by the customers, or the regulators, or by anyone who has any care or interest in aviation.
Some of the supposedly more bizarre suggestions I made at the time, and got seriously attacked for have also been implied if not confirmed.
They were not prepared for diversions as they were supposed to have been, and did not have full information required to perform the flight. At the most critical point of the final fatal approach, the PF was not in full control of the aircraft, as the PNF was manipulating the power.
I've not seen so many "failings" or similar qualifications on a report on a European accident in a very long time, and when I look at what the AAIU had to contend with in terms of lack of information, or even worse, wrong information, they are to be commended on producing a very detailed and accurate finding in respect of an accident that should have serious consequences for a lot of people, at the operational and regulatory levels,
This report has exposed some fundamental flaws in the regulatory environment that may come as a shock to many people, aviation is supposedly one of the most highly regulated activities on the planet, alongside things like Atomic Power stations, and it is clear from this report that the system has failed in a dramatic manner, and will have to be looked at very closely in order to ensure that another accident of this nature does not happen.
I will be reading it in depth at a later occasion, but not tonight.
The number of failings at all levels is scaring, and not what is expected by the customers, or the regulators, or by anyone who has any care or interest in aviation.
Some of the supposedly more bizarre suggestions I made at the time, and got seriously attacked for have also been implied if not confirmed.
They were not prepared for diversions as they were supposed to have been, and did not have full information required to perform the flight. At the most critical point of the final fatal approach, the PF was not in full control of the aircraft, as the PNF was manipulating the power.
I've not seen so many "failings" or similar qualifications on a report on a European accident in a very long time, and when I look at what the AAIU had to contend with in terms of lack of information, or even worse, wrong information, they are to be commended on producing a very detailed and accurate finding in respect of an accident that should have serious consequences for a lot of people, at the operational and regulatory levels,
This report has exposed some fundamental flaws in the regulatory environment that may come as a shock to many people, aviation is supposedly one of the most highly regulated activities on the planet, alongside things like Atomic Power stations, and it is clear from this report that the system has failed in a dramatic manner, and will have to be looked at very closely in order to ensure that another accident of this nature does not happen.
Thanks Jack 1985 and I freely admit that i hadn't noticed that. It still doesn't explain why the aircraft operator (Flightline) allowed that to happen and what exactly were these responsibilities that Manx2 excersised. I can only imagine that it was something that was 'advised' due to commercial requirements. It certainly could not have beed insisted upon as the Crew/Operator/Owner would have a legal responsibility to say "No, we can't do that." I understand that the owner of the aircraft had representation within the Manx2 office, so is anyone suggesting that Manx2 insisted that they should do something known to be illegal?
I can only add that even though I live only 15 minutes from Bristol Airport, I choose to drive over an hour to Gloucester Airport for my flights to the IoM. After almost 40 years working around the world for various airlines I deliberately chose the services provided through Manx2 even though a well known British Airline operated flights from Bristol to the IoM. It wasn't for financial reasons either, just that I would not fly with that other Airline again after closely watching how they operated.
I do appreciate that people didn't like the way that Manx2 portrayed themselves as an Airline (without actually stating that) but that was changed quite a while ago and their advertising now clearly states the Airline that you will be flying on if buying a ticket through Manx2.
I can only add that even though I live only 15 minutes from Bristol Airport, I choose to drive over an hour to Gloucester Airport for my flights to the IoM. After almost 40 years working around the world for various airlines I deliberately chose the services provided through Manx2 even though a well known British Airline operated flights from Bristol to the IoM. It wasn't for financial reasons either, just that I would not fly with that other Airline again after closely watching how they operated.
I do appreciate that people didn't like the way that Manx2 portrayed themselves as an Airline (without actually stating that) but that was changed quite a while ago and their advertising now clearly states the Airline that you will be flying on if buying a ticket through Manx2.
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pppdrive
You were fortunate in that you were flying with the Vanair part of the operation, who had the necessary back-up in place from the start. The other components of the setup was a complete shambles. There are people within Manx2/Citywing who knew exactly what was going on with the German and Spanish parts of the operation. They knew crews were not being paid, and that there was insufficient technical back-up for the operation. The people who ran Manx2 cannot claim ignorance of what was happening, as it was going on right in front of them. As you say, some people are miffed that Manx2 marketed themselves as an airline. When they were getting lots of favourable headlines, or posing with leaders of The IOM they did nothing to dispel the assumption. Whether legally correct or not, there are people connected with the operation who should bow their heads in shame. The undue haste with which they changed their name, and distanced themselves from the accident, when people had died under the Manx2 logo is both disgusting and immoral. You say you drive over an hour to get on a LET410 rather than travel on a Q400. Well all I can say is that I want a pint of the medication you are taking.
You were fortunate in that you were flying with the Vanair part of the operation, who had the necessary back-up in place from the start. The other components of the setup was a complete shambles. There are people within Manx2/Citywing who knew exactly what was going on with the German and Spanish parts of the operation. They knew crews were not being paid, and that there was insufficient technical back-up for the operation. The people who ran Manx2 cannot claim ignorance of what was happening, as it was going on right in front of them. As you say, some people are miffed that Manx2 marketed themselves as an airline. When they were getting lots of favourable headlines, or posing with leaders of The IOM they did nothing to dispel the assumption. Whether legally correct or not, there are people connected with the operation who should bow their heads in shame. The undue haste with which they changed their name, and distanced themselves from the accident, when people had died under the Manx2 logo is both disgusting and immoral. You say you drive over an hour to get on a LET410 rather than travel on a Q400. Well all I can say is that I want a pint of the medication you are taking.
Kapton - You'd better take two bottles as when I started flying with them it wasn't the Let410 but the Dornier 228 of FLM and I had no problem flying on that or with FLM either.
As for the choice of Let410 over the Q400, the choice is not made on aircraft type but of the operating carrier. One I'm more than happy to fly with, the other there's no way I'd get on their flights. That's not listening to other people, just decision made on what I have seen. I'll not mention specifics but no problem with either aircraft, I've done many flights on Q400 in both Australia and New Zealand and also worked in Oz for a Q400 operator.
As for the choice of Let410 over the Q400, the choice is not made on aircraft type but of the operating carrier. One I'm more than happy to fly with, the other there's no way I'd get on their flights. That's not listening to other people, just decision made on what I have seen. I'll not mention specifics but no problem with either aircraft, I've done many flights on Q400 in both Australia and New Zealand and also worked in Oz for a Q400 operator.
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pppdrive
Believe me I will gladly drink 2 bottles, because you do not realise how fortunate you were. If you had known how Manx2 was setup and run you would not be so philosophical. By the way, what happened to FLM?
Believe me I will gladly drink 2 bottles, because you do not realise how fortunate you were. If you had known how Manx2 was setup and run you would not be so philosophical. By the way, what happened to FLM?
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Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com
Think of it as a charter: you as a client call a broker (Manx2), he charters an airplane from the operator (Flightline) who in turn has an airplane from Air Lada on his AOC... this is done fairly often I think. (and if the operator does operate within his legal duty then nothing is wrong - but how should the client oversee that ?)
As Irish Steve has mentioned nuclear power stations.... if you listen to people like Arnie Gunderson of fairewinds.com, then youīll find that there is quite a lot to be desired too. And for risk/responsibility: most nuclear power stations are a ltd company and if one blows up, it goes into bankruptcy and the one next to it can continue to make money for the same owner, who is not responsible - legally - for anything.
The regulators are in bed with the industry and/or washouts that donīt know shi....
Kapton, I know one of the DO228 drivers personally - I would not let him drive me to the airport, let alone fly me some place....
kapton - as far as I am aware, FLM had some financial difficulties and eventually lost their AOC. I am happy to be corrected though if anyone else knows exactly why they suddenly were no more.
As for they way things were, I based my decisions on the operating carrier and at that stage had no problem with FLM. I found their crews to be efficient, the aircraft quite reasonable and the service up to expectations. I had (and still do not have) any inside knowledge of how Manx2 themselves performed within their back offices but from a passenger view they and their contracted staff performed above expectations.
As for they way things were, I based my decisions on the operating carrier and at that stage had no problem with FLM. I found their crews to be efficient, the aircraft quite reasonable and the service up to expectations. I had (and still do not have) any inside knowledge of how Manx2 themselves performed within their back offices but from a passenger view they and their contracted staff performed above expectations.
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Contract
Having read , like others, enough of these reports, the AAIU can only record the facts. However it still strobes out at you...Its obvious;
Why would an individual with any scruples or credibility wish to enter into an arrangement without a contract. Particularly one with such onerous safety standards and their associated costs. See page 70. Then, post event, approach the owner to tie up this loose end. No contract, no accountability please.
One could allege that the AAIU are also unable to state that by any other name Manx2 wished to trade as a virtual airline. Based on the facts revealed by the investigator; clearly the worst kind, exploiting loop holes and grey areas to line pockets.
The big wheels of Commercial Air Transport grind slowly towards minimising accidents and no individual, team, organisation, system or barrier can be expected to perform flawlessly. However, Weeds like this ticket seller need to be stamped on quickly.
So, would the former post holders responsible please shuffle away from the aviation arena, own up to your culpability, and let the rest of those professional and upstanding custodians of Air Safety get on and try to improve this dynamic and complex activity.
Why would an individual with any scruples or credibility wish to enter into an arrangement without a contract. Particularly one with such onerous safety standards and their associated costs. See page 70. Then, post event, approach the owner to tie up this loose end. No contract, no accountability please.
One could allege that the AAIU are also unable to state that by any other name Manx2 wished to trade as a virtual airline. Based on the facts revealed by the investigator; clearly the worst kind, exploiting loop holes and grey areas to line pockets.
The big wheels of Commercial Air Transport grind slowly towards minimising accidents and no individual, team, organisation, system or barrier can be expected to perform flawlessly. However, Weeds like this ticket seller need to be stamped on quickly.
So, would the former post holders responsible please shuffle away from the aviation arena, own up to your culpability, and let the rest of those professional and upstanding custodians of Air Safety get on and try to improve this dynamic and complex activity.
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As a similar virtual airline arrangement still exists on the IOM, with similar risks, i think its time for the UK CAA and the Manx government to step up to ensure these ticket selling arrangements don't continue to muddy the waters, and that airlines purporting to be UK carriers are given the proper oversight by the authorities.
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hangar6 : some of Manx2 and subsequently CityWings flights have been operated by Van Air Europe's Let 410s for many years now . VAA is a safe and well regulated company which has never had an accident or serious incident . The Czech Authorities are doing their job and the Van Air pilots are always well trained and competent . Your slur towards ' an operator from Czech republic' is uninformed and totally biaised . Coming from Ireland , you should think about looking in your own backyard before making bizarre assumption about others ....
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Their low time is apparent..in 4K plus hours on those things, I never remember needing to select idle above touchdown..and we were well warned of dire consequences which is what these poor chaps did indeed encounter
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I haven't come across a situation in commercial passenger operations in turboprops (single shaft and free turbines) where you would select ground idle prior to touch down.