Crash-Cork Airport

[AirResearcher]

Chaps, this is not about rumour mongering, if no one can provide an answer or if its not true then I will be more than happy, as will all of us. We all know the circumstances between Manx 2 Air Lada and Flightline BCN raise a lot of questions, and this is one of them.

[sickofitall]

I heard more or less the same as AirResearcher yesterday...I was told that it has not yet been ascertained where the crew stayed the night before the accident. Fairly reliable source too.

[jumpseater]

AR
Does anyone know if there is any substance in the rumour

Yes the person who started the 'rumour' will know if its factual or not. Find that individual and you'll have your definitive answer.

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13...2011_005-0.PDF

[AirResearcher]

Thanks Sickofitall & Jumpseater,

JS-Ive already read the prelim. report, which doesnt conclusively answer the question unfortunately, although it seems to at first glance.

I was actually asked by my 'source' to see if I could find out anything as he/she needed to substantiate it themselves, that's all I am able to say. Sorry if that doesnt answer everyone's concerns, but thats all I have.

[JW411]

"That's all I am able to say"

Well, that statement is absolute b*llsh*t.

You have started a rumour with (so far) absolutely no foundation and when you are questioned, you tell us that "that's all I am able to say".

Why?

Precisely who is trying to stop you from saying more and why?

If this is a matter of confidentiality then why are you posting on pprune? Have you considered contacting the investigating authorities and have you told them that you have something important to say?

Either you know something or you don't. Which is it?

Put up, or Shut up.

[BOAC]

IF there is any substance in this 'rumour' it is anecdotal since the crash was at 0950 on the second sector and the aircraft had been on a night mail flight, so at the time of the crash I would suggest that a 'previous (unofficial) duty' 'putting the seats back in' would have been strictly illegal but probably not relevant in terms of duty time. It would be little different to an airline management pilot doing a days work in the office and then going off meek and mild on a night flight, which we know happens. Likewise where they 'spent the night' may or may not be of interest to the enquiry as would be their 'base' and HOTAC if any, and previous duties/rest. So unless your ?'source'? has different information, it is irrelevant and there are far bigger fish to fry. Perhaps if he/she has, you would be kind enough to pass them on? He/she has, of course, contacted the investigating authority with this information no doubt? It is for them to determine in the course of the investigation whether the crew were sufficiently 'rested' for the duty.

[JW411]

Precisely..............................

[Avenger]

Couldn't agree more BOAC. What sort of twisted mind starts a rumour, claims it comes from a " source" then bails out when put under pressure, it is highly disrespectful to those that suffered loss here and simply a load of nonsense and clap trap that has no place on this forum.

[AirResearcher]

I understand any cynicism, however I will continue to ask serious and valid questions if you are happy for me to continue my work trying to improve the working conditions of commercial aviation workers - crews in particular.

I will not however break any promises of confidentiality, which is the case here.

I am more happy to receive and respond to any professional or light hearted criticism and comments, and I wish I had the time to convince any sceptics - but I dont, so all I can ask do is for you all to have a little faith.

Thanks

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by AR

respond to any professional or light hearted criticism and comments

- pleased to see that - if you would then - can you confirm that you and your 'source' know enough about the way aviation works to realise that what you have posted so far is probably irrelevant?

PS - and whether this ?valid? 'rumour' HAS been passed to the investigating authority - in the most professional way, of course?

PPS We are more than happy to see you "to continue my work trying to improve the working". What exactly are you doing - tell us your credentials. I see you have commented on Eurostar and Virgin's 'industrial' issues so far. Any professional avaition qualifications to tell us about?

We all DO have faith, but past history has proved that those who burst on the scene with a 'hot rumour' are generally time-wasters and some times malicious.

Edited for taypos

[windytoo]

AirResearcher, I am very pleased that you are trying to improve my working conditions. I would be very grateful if you could post your name and address so that I may know to whom I may send my concerns.

[rhythm method]

I don't know anything about the rest the crew had prior to reporting for duty.

I wonder if AirResearcher is getting mixed up with the fact that the crew were having trouble getting one of the seats to lock into position?

This was seen at BHD, therefore after the initial positioning flight from BFS and thus not interfering with crew rest periods.

Maybe a simple bit of 2+2=5?

[Sunnyjohn]

I've a feeling that this is all a bit of a red herring but as it is known that the previous night sector was a mail flight (I believe it was a Royal Mail charter), does anyone know whether it would have been necessary to remove the seats for this or would there have been sufficient room for the mail in the cargo hold?

[jumpseater]

SJ, these (and similar) types of aircraft are frequently used for overnight mail express courier work. Seats on these types are 'relatively' easy and quick to remove and replace to allow for light/small cargo operations. Sometimes seats are retained and mail bags fixed to seats and strapped in so they can't move. It'll vary dependant on the aircraft/contract/time/packages.

So, it is plausible that an aircraft like this would be configured for cargo operations overnight, and reconfigured for passenger transport during the day within an hour or two. The passenger cabin in effect becomes the cargo hold, some aircraft will also have a belly pack to allow extra cargo/luggage to be carried, though that varies from type to type. From images, this aircraft appears to have been 'standard' configuration in simple terms, with no additional cargo capability, though I stand to be corrected.

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/webimage/i.../310864615.jpg
On this image you can see the 'cargo' door open at the rear of the aircraft.

[what next]

Hello!

So, it is plausible that an aircraft like this would be configured for cargo operations overnight, and reconfigured for passenger transport during the day within an hour or two.

When I flew the Metroliner a few years back, we avoided this kind of mixed operation. If the conversion is done properly, it takes four people around an hour of nasty work. It is not just the nineteen seats that have to be put onto their rails and secured, but there is the (heavy!) cargo floor that has to be removed first, then the (very very very nasty to handle) fiberglass liners that protect the cabin interior. The carpets have to be reinstalled, around the entrance door this even requires the removal and replacing of several screws. Then all the safety equipment has to be put back into place (life vests, oxygen masks, safety leaflets) and checked. All the seats, carpets and floor panels must be carried across the hangar/apron or loaded/unloaded into a van. Since it is very narrow inside a Metroliner, not too many people can work there at the same time, so there is no way of speeding-up the process by employing more people.
Under commercial JAR/EU-Ops, the whole operation must be supervised and signed by a maintenance operation which makes it quite expensive, because they will charge you for something like two hours for a mechanic every time.

I have assisted in this labor a couple of times when I was off flying duty and I don't think that I would have accepted to fly after crawling back and forward through the aircraft for over an hour and itching everywhere from these awful fiberglass liners.

But for normal mail operation, the Metroliner does not really need to be reconfigured. The cargo hold (right behind that cargo door) is fairly large and usually mail is not so heavy as to cause mass and balance problems. Individual sacks of mail and heavier parcels can be fixed to the passenger seats in front if necessary. There is special gear awailable for that, like sleeves that are put over the seats which hold the sacks in place.

Anyway, I don't think this has anything to to with the accident. An extremely inexperienced crew deliberatley flew three approaches under conditions, for which neither their aeroplane was equipped and approved, nor they themselves were trained and approved. For some reason they lost control the third time. Tiredness/fatigue may have contributed and reconfiguring the aircraft in the middle of the night would certainly be a factor there, but it isn't too difficult to say "no" even if one is very tired.

[Sunnyjohn]

Thanks to both of you - I think you've seen that red herring off.

[Swiss Cheese]

Interim accident report published tomorrow

The Irish Department of Transport will be publishing an interim report into this accident tomorrow.

I wonder whether the AAIU will shed further light on why the crew seemingly did the aviation equivalent of running three sets of red traffic lights.

Watch this space.

[VeeAny]

The interim statement can be found at http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13...2012_003-0.PDF

[BigFrank]

Back to the future

Thanks for the link.
From last year, however.

I presume that the previous post alluded to a new report; due today 7th Feb 2012

[ohreally]

It was!

AAIU Report No: 2012-003 State File No: IRL00911013 Published 07/02/12
INTERIM STATEMENT
Accident to Fairchild Metro III EC-ITP at Cork Airport on 10 February 2011