Crash-Cork Airport
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'The flightplan will need to have been filed with CFMU/Eurocontrol, and the airframe and crew will need to have been 'allocated' to the flight by some one/organisation. The crew will have been rostered and known to report at airport X to brief and fly airframe Y to airport Z. To fly the schedule the organisation managing the flying programme will have known and scheduled to have an aircraft at Belfast to fly the route. Therefore there will be an easily identifiable organiser, (to the investigators), of that basic requirement to operate that schedule.'
Doh! I may be a Manxy but you don't need a degree in astrophysics to answer that question - begins in M and ends in 2. The whole operation is run from the hangar here at Ronaldsway. I even know the ops manager, yessir.
Doh! I may be a Manxy but you don't need a degree in astrophysics to answer that question - begins in M and ends in 2. The whole operation is run from the hangar here at Ronaldsway. I even know the ops manager, yessir.
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Air Lada = "L A de A" remains my hypothesis.
ALA, mentioned in Wikipedia and much earlier by myself, possibly from the same Wikipedia source, is different, is bankrupt and is "not part of this story" it seems.
Air Madrid collapsed more like 5 or 6 years ago it seems.
ALA, mentioned in Wikipedia and much earlier by myself, possibly from the same Wikipedia source, is different, is bankrupt and is "not part of this story" it seems.
Air Madrid collapsed more like 5 or 6 years ago it seems.
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Tinwald
You seem to be suggesting that Manx2 is not a virtual airline or a ticketing agency but is actually an airline that can't be bothered to go through the inconvenience and expense of obtaining an AOC?
You seem to be suggesting that Manx2 is not a virtual airline or a ticketing agency but is actually an airline that can't be bothered to go through the inconvenience and expense of obtaining an AOC?
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runway 30
When manx2 started up in 2006 they advertised themselves as an airline, they have since advertised themselves as the 'Island's Airline' and everyone who has flown with them have thought they were flying with an airline. Only those with a nouse of knowledge aboout their setup knew all along that it was nothing else but a ticketing agency and probably 90% of the numpties that sit in the keys probably had no idea about the setup either.
Never has Hayes breathed a word about getting an AOC; getting its own crew or aircraft. Sure, it has had to set up an ops organisation to keep the show on the road day to day but it has hoodwinked the Manx public into thinking it had its own nice little local airline from day uno.
When manx2 started up in 2006 they advertised themselves as an airline, they have since advertised themselves as the 'Island's Airline' and everyone who has flown with them have thought they were flying with an airline. Only those with a nouse of knowledge aboout their setup knew all along that it was nothing else but a ticketing agency and probably 90% of the numpties that sit in the keys probably had no idea about the setup either.
Never has Hayes breathed a word about getting an AOC; getting its own crew or aircraft. Sure, it has had to set up an ops organisation to keep the show on the road day to day but it has hoodwinked the Manx public into thinking it had its own nice little local airline from day uno.
tinwald
The whole operation is run from the hangar here at Ronaldsway. I even know the ops manager, yessir.
The whole operation is run from the hangar here at Ronaldsway. I even know the ops manager, yessir.
(your words not mine), you'll be as aware as the rest of us 'non Manxy's' that an 'airline' doesn't need an AOC. It has to use someone who has a current AOC. Perhaps you could tell us exactly, (oh, and factually), A: what the ops manager and his teams duties and responsibilities agreed with the aircraft owners are are under the appropriate EU legislation. And crucially what tasks they actually perform on a daily basis relating to the relevant legislation.
Extra points will be added if you can tell us factually B: if the aircraft are wet/dry in, out, do the hokey pokey, leased etc, as you as a mere 'manxy' will clearly know, (it not being astrophysics and all that), this will have a bearing on the operational control and responsibilities of the parties involved in this accident.
I look forward to some facts, which'll be rare on prune, but I'm a glass half full type of chap..
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Responsibilities
Tinwald: Therefore there will be an easily identifiable organiser, (to the investigators), of that basic requirement to operate that schedule.'
You quite cleary know very little about the organisation, or lack of it, that goes on in Spain.
You quite cleary know very little about the organisation, or lack of it, that goes on in Spain.
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If you research Spanish accident reports for say the last 10-15 years you will find that crashing Metroliners has been a bit of a national sport.
I imagine with its high aspect ratio wing & a few other quirky features, that it is not such a forgiving little beast. Unfortunately the individuals flying this tricky little contraption , in the dodgiest companies around, are of course the least "valuable" in the job market I.E. the least experienced.
Difficult to change that situation, but the least one would wish for is that they could resist the pressure to bust minima, & indeed even less forgivably, commence 3 approaches blatantly illegally, even though working for several gash operators simultaneously.
That they found themselves unable to resist this perceived, & indeed probably very real, pressure, is finally likely to be the biggest single cause that can be identified.
Sure, scheduling such a recently qualified Crew pairing together was hardly ideal, but ,had they not chosen to commence 3 illegal approaches, and seemingly further excacerbated the risk by commencing their Go-Arounds from way below minima, this would not in itself have presented a problem.
Thanks to the link previously given, I have managed to watch the programme on BBC Ireland.
Very well researched IMHO, and really rather tragic.
I imagine with its high aspect ratio wing & a few other quirky features, that it is not such a forgiving little beast. Unfortunately the individuals flying this tricky little contraption , in the dodgiest companies around, are of course the least "valuable" in the job market I.E. the least experienced.
Difficult to change that situation, but the least one would wish for is that they could resist the pressure to bust minima, & indeed even less forgivably, commence 3 approaches blatantly illegally, even though working for several gash operators simultaneously.
That they found themselves unable to resist this perceived, & indeed probably very real, pressure, is finally likely to be the biggest single cause that can be identified.
Sure, scheduling such a recently qualified Crew pairing together was hardly ideal, but ,had they not chosen to commence 3 illegal approaches, and seemingly further excacerbated the risk by commencing their Go-Arounds from way below minima, this would not in itself have presented a problem.
Thanks to the link previously given, I have managed to watch the programme on BBC Ireland.
Very well researched IMHO, and really rather tragic.
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Spanish national sports: Soccer and Metroliner crashing (?)
For those of us on the ground, both metaphorically and literally, it would be interesting to have some background figures to allow our own risk analysis.
Do Spanish pilots have a disproportionate propensity for pranging such planes (sic) or are such planes more common in Spanish airspace ?
If the latter is true (as I suspect/ hope) then the statistical skew would, for me at least, be akin to the dearth of deaths amongst cyclist riding pushbikes on motorways.
(None of which I hope is to treat with any levity the deaths of 6 people, including a Spanish pilot, in this tragic accident.)
Do Spanish pilots have a disproportionate propensity for pranging such planes (sic) or are such planes more common in Spanish airspace ?
If the latter is true (as I suspect/ hope) then the statistical skew would, for me at least, be akin to the dearth of deaths amongst cyclist riding pushbikes on motorways.
(None of which I hope is to treat with any levity the deaths of 6 people, including a Spanish pilot, in this tragic accident.)
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Can't find the stats, I will try and find time to look at ASN later, but I remember at least 3 fatals.
I think much of this was due to the aircraft being used by dodgy second rate companies who were employing inexperienced (read low paid) crews to do night freight, with all the attendant "niceties" like overweight etc "possibly" present. If I remember correctly they were all freighters, don't recall any pax fatalities.
Neither the most glamorous , nor well self-regulated , end of the market.
I think much of this was due to the aircraft being used by dodgy second rate companies who were employing inexperienced (read low paid) crews to do night freight, with all the attendant "niceties" like overweight etc "possibly" present. If I remember correctly they were all freighters, don't recall any pax fatalities.
Neither the most glamorous , nor well self-regulated , end of the market.
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Spanish Metroliner accidents
I found these two at:
Accident Database: Aircraft Crash Details > Swearingen 226 Metroliner
Swiftair 28th July 1998
The aircraft crashed short of Runway 25 at Barcelona while attempting to land on a cargo flight from Palma de Mallorca. The aircraft was too low on approach, and impacted the airport boundary fence with one of its wings, causing a loss of control. (sound familiar . . .?)
Tadair 12th April 2002
The aircraft, on a flight from Madrid-Barajas Airport, crashed while attempting to land on Runway 24L Palma Mallorca.
CAUSES: "It is considered that the accident occurred as a result of the aircraft having made a very tight turning maneuver carried out at night at low altitude and descending on a nonstandard approach, not in accordance with normal procedures and procedures of the company. The crew could not control the aircraft in descent due to a possible situation of stall onset of slipping in the turn, or both reasons. (Online translation of Spanish)
And I found this at:
Metroliner Parcelforce On The Daily Shift — Trip Reports Forum | Airliners.net
Sunday 22nd August 2010
Service Manx2 NM 212 operated by Euro Continental Air
Scheduled: 13.00 // 13.40
Booking for this flight is done via the company´s website directly.
Notice who the operator was? So some time between August 2010 and February 2011 the operator changed to BCN Barcelona, or Air Lada, a fact which Manx2 must have been aware of.
Accident Database: Aircraft Crash Details > Swearingen 226 Metroliner
Swiftair 28th July 1998
The aircraft crashed short of Runway 25 at Barcelona while attempting to land on a cargo flight from Palma de Mallorca. The aircraft was too low on approach, and impacted the airport boundary fence with one of its wings, causing a loss of control. (sound familiar . . .?)
Tadair 12th April 2002
The aircraft, on a flight from Madrid-Barajas Airport, crashed while attempting to land on Runway 24L Palma Mallorca.
CAUSES: "It is considered that the accident occurred as a result of the aircraft having made a very tight turning maneuver carried out at night at low altitude and descending on a nonstandard approach, not in accordance with normal procedures and procedures of the company. The crew could not control the aircraft in descent due to a possible situation of stall onset of slipping in the turn, or both reasons. (Online translation of Spanish)
And I found this at:
Metroliner Parcelforce On The Daily Shift — Trip Reports Forum | Airliners.net
Sunday 22nd August 2010
Service Manx2 NM 212 operated by Euro Continental Air
Scheduled: 13.00 // 13.40
Booking for this flight is done via the company´s website directly.
Notice who the operator was? So some time between August 2010 and February 2011 the operator changed to BCN Barcelona, or Air Lada, a fact which Manx2 must have been aware of.
Last edited by Sunnyjohn; 21st May 2011 at 07:52.
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Spanish airline companies: connected/ unconnected/ disconnected ?
The plot thickens.
My latest take is that
Air Lada is just another name for L A de A.
Flysur is/ was another name for the same thing.
TAER Andalus likewise.
So we have 4 names at least in the pot, as above.
But then these all connect to Top Fly a flying school based in Sabadell, just outside Barcelona (also in Huesca though now closed there) which was founded in 1991, which hit major financial problems early in 2011, whose employees struck over non-payment of wages, which was bought out by a Dutch company who relaunched the venture on 12th Feb under the same name (!) but which has now hit even graver financial troubles and has had its premises sealed by the Guardia Civil on May 7th due to a failure to meet its commitments either to the Spanish taxman or to the Spanish National Insurance office leaving 60 students on the ground.
And where did the the Spanish pilot who was in charge of this flight live?
You got it in one. Sabadell !
And where did he train ?
Right first time !
Not a very pretty picture, for in addition to the solid smokescreen of different names, the 4 identical companies named above are owned mainly by building companies trying to diversify out of the Spanish housing bubble. Which does not exactly inspire confidence in their likely interest in the finer points of airline procedures. Well not in me !
My latest take is that
Air Lada is just another name for L A de A.
Flysur is/ was another name for the same thing.
TAER Andalus likewise.
So we have 4 names at least in the pot, as above.
But then these all connect to Top Fly a flying school based in Sabadell, just outside Barcelona (also in Huesca though now closed there) which was founded in 1991, which hit major financial problems early in 2011, whose employees struck over non-payment of wages, which was bought out by a Dutch company who relaunched the venture on 12th Feb under the same name (!) but which has now hit even graver financial troubles and has had its premises sealed by the Guardia Civil on May 7th due to a failure to meet its commitments either to the Spanish taxman or to the Spanish National Insurance office leaving 60 students on the ground.
And where did the the Spanish pilot who was in charge of this flight live?
You got it in one. Sabadell !
And where did he train ?
Right first time !
Not a very pretty picture, for in addition to the solid smokescreen of different names, the 4 identical companies named above are owned mainly by building companies trying to diversify out of the Spanish housing bubble. Which does not exactly inspire confidence in their likely interest in the finer points of airline procedures. Well not in me !
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More links....
A cursory search for the company Tadair, mentioned previously, strongly indicates that Tadair was in fact the commercial transport branch of Top Fly flying school.
¿ Small world the Spanish aviation one ?
¿ Small world the Spanish aviation one ?
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please get first informed and be sure of waht you (all say)
TADAIR never had any relation with TOPFLY, topfly had his own airline..
Airlada had never relation with FLYSUR or Taer ANDALUS. please please....
TADAIR never had any relation with TOPFLY, topfly had his own airline..
Airlada had never relation with FLYSUR or Taer ANDALUS. please please....
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Speculation about Spanish aviation
..."my latest take is that..." and "...strongly indicates..."
shows that I am working in the dark and that I have no insight/ special knowledge into/ of Spanish aviation, as I have clearly stated here.
The first questions which anyone with knowledge of Spanish aviation can tell us are "Who/ what/ where is Air Lada". And why is it so hard to locate?
The second is:
Were Tadair (founded 1990) and Top Fly (founded 1991) rival flying schools both based at Sabadell Airport and both working in opposition from then till 2004 when Tadair collapsed.
A third:
What is the relation beteween Air Lada and Top Fly (and Euro Continental) if any ?
Plus any other information you care to give.
I am only too pleased to read accurate information and willing to admit my own lack of knowledge and erroneous speculation. The latter takes place primarily due to lack of the former.
shows that I am working in the dark and that I have no insight/ special knowledge into/ of Spanish aviation, as I have clearly stated here.
The first questions which anyone with knowledge of Spanish aviation can tell us are "Who/ what/ where is Air Lada". And why is it so hard to locate?
The second is:
Were Tadair (founded 1990) and Top Fly (founded 1991) rival flying schools both based at Sabadell Airport and both working in opposition from then till 2004 when Tadair collapsed.
A third:
What is the relation beteween Air Lada and Top Fly (and Euro Continental) if any ?
Plus any other information you care to give.
I am only too pleased to read accurate information and willing to admit my own lack of knowledge and erroneous speculation. The latter takes place primarily due to lack of the former.
Last edited by BigFrank; 21st May 2011 at 07:55. Reason: Add "3rd question"
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Air Lada, Flysur and Andalus
Airlada had never relation with FLYSUR or Taer ANDALUS. please please...
I think Kroack is right here. Flysur and Andalus both went out of business within a year (2008).
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Does it really matter? the name of the fly-by-night owner that they used ? doubt if any one of those quoted was any better than the other 
What matters is that current legislation leaves the unsuspecting pax flying with (supposedly) a "local" (& so proud of that in their ads, weren't they? ) operator,but in reality finds themselves , in the back of a ship owned/operated (perchance both? ) by any Tom, Dick , or Manuel, that offers the lowest price and holds an AOC from anywhere acceptable to a JAR registered operator.
All oranges are NOT the same, for the avoidance of doubt.
What matters is that current legislation leaves the unsuspecting pax flying with (supposedly) a "local" (& so proud of that in their ads, weren't they? ) operator,but in reality finds themselves , in the back of a ship owned/operated (perchance both? ) by any Tom, Dick , or Manuel, that offers the lowest price and holds an AOC from anywhere acceptable to a JAR registered operator.
All oranges are NOT the same, for the avoidance of doubt.
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Erroneous companies and importance of knowing who is who in Spanish aviation
I acept the errors of having linked some companies mentioned; this was implicit/ explicit in my last post I feel.
I remain interested in the links between those companies which I mentioned subsequently, in my last post, and await accurate information on these matters.
Does it matter ?
Given that the damage is already done at Cork, arguably no.
However it strikes me that shining a light in these dark corners cannot but be good for the travelling public within the EU; a category to which I certainly belong.
(It so happens that the triangle Spain- "Northern Ireland"- Ireland is of particular interest to me but the issues at stake transcend this personal emotion I am sure.)
I remain interested in the links between those companies which I mentioned subsequently, in my last post, and await accurate information on these matters.
Does it matter ?
Given that the damage is already done at Cork, arguably no.
However it strikes me that shining a light in these dark corners cannot but be good for the travelling public within the EU; a category to which I certainly belong.
(It so happens that the triangle Spain- "Northern Ireland"- Ireland is of particular interest to me but the issues at stake transcend this personal emotion I am sure.)
