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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:41   #81 (permalink)
 
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Rab C, you hit the nail in the head with Manx2, I witnessed the Let 410 tipping at Ronaldsway.
I also witnessed a few landings from my own experience that were below minimas.

I'll get shot down for this, but this outfit were operating like an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:54   #82 (permalink)
 
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"I'll bet todays disaster will make a few people think again about approachs in bad conditions - for a while anyway"

Are you a professional avaitor?

That has to be the dumbest statement.

All pilots think hard about any approach. In bad weather they look at their limits, the aircraft's limits, the runway limits, the current & forecast weather and their fuel options and make a judgement. We plan to operate within the parameters and carry the legal and utlimate responsibility for our judgements but are trained to make those judgements.

Think again? In what way?
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:06   #83 (permalink)
 
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Wow ! Hold your horses ! Neither Manx2 nor the contracted operators ever pushed anyone to fly below Minimas or above limitations or anything like that .My experience is that the Captain's decisions regarding diversions/LVP take offs/Icing/Wind... were always fully supported by the company(ies) as it should be .
If one wants to chitchat about the accident ; I'd be more interested to hear your views about the position of the aircraft . How did it get upside down ? The fog might not be the only factor here .
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:07   #84 (permalink)
 
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Rumors, No Point.

I feel that something must be said about the speculation about the tragic crash today.

There's alot of posts some obviously not from professional pilots which speculate about the causes of this accident.

End of the day it will take time to discover the real reasons for the accident, and assigning blame to crew / operator is unfair and not what the aviation saftey culture is about. Remeber the pilots on board that aircraft was somebodies partner / family / son / daughter, and i feel at this sad time or any time its unfair to point the finger and blame without any findings or research being known or published.

so why dont we work on known fact instead of rumor and speculation when trying to learn from this accident.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:08   #85 (permalink)
 
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bloody reporters

Because I use Cork as SLF a fair bit, I was watching the news on this at lunchtime. Quote: "the aircraft made 3 attempts to land, and crashed on the final attempt".

I feel sorry for you professional folks who have to hear/read that type of utter nonsense all too often.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:19   #86 (permalink)
 
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Quite agree, not the fisrt time manx 2 land when every one else has diverted !!!!!!!!!!!!! hope i'm wrong on this one
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:20   #87 (permalink)
 
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And whats wrong with making 2/3/4 approaches to the same airfield if ATC gives the rvr/vis above minimums and you have sufficent fuel to do so.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:20   #88 (permalink)
 
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He may have gone about it in a more subtle way but silverhawk has only raised the subject of safety v the bottom line. There are dozens of pages held on this server not only about Ryanair and those foretelling disasters waiting to happen amongst the locos because of perceived 'lower standards' but also questions concerning fuel policy and fatigue. All thses matters are being driven by the 'bottom line' and he raises a legitimate concern that many authorities care to turn a blind eye to so give the chap a break.

stroppy - You may think hard about approaches and I think hard about approaches but regretably the standards to which you and I and the majority of professional pilots operate to are not universal, even within a well managed company with a sound training system. Just ask any TRI/TRE about what they see in the sim from some of your colleagues and some of the stories would make your hair curl. Sadly, the standards between NW European mainline operators and 'others' (even within our 'expanded' Europe and I'll include the kind of outfit Manx2 goes to for wet-lease services) is massive.

Rab C - I've also watched Manx2 and the original euromanx aircraft 'get in' when others have been going around. Common factor - low priced, wet-leases running on a shoe string. Indisputable.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:23   #89 (permalink)
 
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and yes i do agree with that, ive seen here on the isle of man manx 2 landing when the likes of flybe are not even considering it. And i too hope that its not the case this time
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:51   #90 (permalink)
 
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Cork Runway 17 approach slope

From recollection, the ground beneath the approach to RW 17 at Cork has a significant up-slope gradient thus rad ht and baro ht would be appreciably different. Food for distraction. Is there any mention of this anomaly on the approach plate??
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:52   #91 (permalink)
 
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This is truly a tragedy of huge proportion, especially for a small island like IOM.

I did read on the Manx2 website that the aircraft made 3 attempts to land.

Quote:
AlexAlcock And whats wrong with making 2/3/4 approaches to the same airfield if ATC gives the rvr/vis above minimums and you have sufficent fuel to do so.
As far as I were aware, you can shoot an approach passed the OM/1000ft/4nm only if the RVR is acceptable.
What is the maximum CAT of the aircraft?

Also, even if the weather is ABOVE minimums, but you have to make a "weather related missed approach", I was also under the impression that the weather must improve x2 in order to make a 3rd approach?

It shows here, and in the case of the recent BHX Biz Jet incident in near LVP conditions just how vigilant and cautious you have to be when operating at limits. They are limits for a reason!
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:52   #92 (permalink)
 
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How many of us have continued an approach down to minima only to experience lower than reported conditions? Cork weather can change fast and conditions on the final (visual) segment of the approach may have been very different those reported.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:58   #93 (permalink)
 
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Plenty of times and a well-trained, disciplined crew would go-around - no questions asked. Unless your company and operator are scraping along the bottom of the bottom line.

Sorry to return to silverhawks pet subject but safety and finance are linked and the further down the airline food chain one goes, the more inextricably linked they become.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:59   #94 (permalink)
 
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Pin Head- I have also heard a number of guys state that according to JAR OPS "2 approaches and then divert", but I've never found any reference in JAR OPS to this.

Can you provide a ref?
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 16:03   #95 (permalink)
 
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Yes correct you can only continue past the OM/1000 AAL If the report Vis/RVR is above the minima, Nothing to do with cloud. And i do not work for Manx2 i work as a professional pilot and live on the island so im not sure about what CAT the manx2 was (lets not speculate now).

As far as number of approaches goes I've never heard of any rules about number of approaches that can be made in sequence or respective weather rules for this. As far as i am aware you just need the vis as detailed above and sufficent fuel for the approach a missed approach and divert plus the normal final reserve then there no limit on approaches.


But we dont know what happened and as said before we should learn from facts instead of blame on speculation.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 16:06   #96 (permalink)
 
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All of which bring us back to the approach ban! (Ariana, EGKK, many years ago)
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 16:08   #97 (permalink)
 
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jayc004

Quote:
I was also under the impression that the weather must improve x2 in order to make a 3rd approach?
FWIW I agree with the others here (e.g. Artie and Alex) in that there is no general rule. It will be down to the individual operator and will be stated in the carrier's Operations manual. For example our rule set ( and we are a JAROPS outfit) allows a third approach if the weather conditions are reported to have significantly improved.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 16:14   #98 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Also, even if the weather is ABOVE minimums, but you have to make a "weather related missed approach", I was also under the impression that the weather must improve x2 in order to make a 3rd approach?
As stated earlier, I doubt it is a "law" anywhere, but something similar might be in company manuals.

It is in our Co Manuals about 3rd approach only in certain circs, but not as strict as stated above. One of the factors is to avoid "distress to pax"...
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 16:15   #99 (permalink)
 
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A lot of people here who clearly don't fly seem obsessed by the fact they shot an approach at both ends. Traffic permitting there is nothing whatsoever wrong with this. The vis may be better at one end compared with the other. The tapes may expand on this.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 16:16   #100 (permalink)

 
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Quote:
so why dont we work on known fact instead of rumor and speculation when trying to learn from this accident.
Fact: Vis was bad
Fact: more than one approach was made
Fact: 75% of aeroplane accidents are caused by pilot error
Fact: they crashed.

English speaking is not a factor (you don't need to be able to speak English to read flight instruments), therefor either they had extreme bad luck and some sort of failure on approach which caused them to crash, or they messed up the approach and crashed. You also can tell from the flight instruments when you are above, at or below minimums and so even if they were not passed proper weather info, that judgement should have been made in the cockpit.

Therefore I'd suggest that there is a 25% chance that they had a failure which caused this.
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