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Old 10th Feb 2011, 13:58   #61 (permalink)
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what was the nationality if the crew?
I'm sure the crew and passenger manifests will be released in due course. Let the authorities have chance to contact the families of the deceased and injured crew and passengers.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:03   #62 (permalink)
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If the RVR was below 550m when they passed 1000ft all I can say is 'Cowboys!'.
Well we don't know what the RVR was when they passed 1000' so let's not speculate, nor, insult those who have died.

A bit more respect wouldn't go amiss FourTrails.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:03   #63 (permalink)
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Very sure the Metro isn't cat II.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:05   #64 (permalink)
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I am assuming that my post quoting the Daily Mail article linked earlier is causing some kind of issue or is in some sense contrary to term of use.

Anyway, according to said report eyewitnesses saw, saw, the plane held in a queue for 20 minutes before making the third approach.

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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:06   #65 (permalink)
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Slant range in fog. It's perfectly feasible to be able to see up!
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:10   #66 (permalink)
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Runway 35 is nearby runway 17 - it's within 7,000 feet!
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:13   #67 (permalink)
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Defo one Spanish crew member I'm afraid
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:15   #68 (permalink)
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The condition of the u/c indicates the wheels made no contact with the ground, so it seems the a/c contacted in present and final attitude. Therefore this was more than a hard landing from a botched approach, or so it would appear.
Unfortunately this thread has quickly descended into the usual amateur-investigator nonsense.

You have clearly overlooked the fact that undercarriages appear to be in good condition thousands of times every day after 'contact with the ground'. How the hell can you detect that this undercarriage didn't contact the ground from pictures?

How the hell can you conclude that the aircraft 'contacted in present and final attitude'. That is highly improbable amateur speculation.

Who the hell are you to judge that it was a 'botched approach'?

You have provided clear evidence that amateurs should leave it to the professional accident investigators to do their job, rather than spout utter drivel and unfounded nonsense in an attempt to look clever - which, for the record, you don't!
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:19   #69 (permalink)
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Only Cat II on RWY17
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:25   #70 (permalink)
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Just wanted to add something : to people drawing quick conclusions (ie : 'cowboys' ...weather analysis based on METARs ....) . Remember that those crewmembers were friends and family members of some of us so , please , have a minimum amount of respect . Also try to understand that if they decided to leave the hold for a third approach on 17 , I'm pretty sure that they received an indication from Cork tower/App at that precise time that the VIS/RVR was at or above their Minima . For the rest , could we possibly wait until some form of official report gets out .
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:29   #71 (permalink)
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JAR OPS i believe, two go-arounds and you have to divert, unless guarantee of third landing can be made.

having recently done a poll amoung a mix of aviators, not many knew about this rule.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:38   #72 (permalink)
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No-one is going to wait for "the official report" for heavens sake - it might be years

I don't hold with slagging off the pilots but we need to know what happened and why ASAP

I'll bet todays disaster will make a few people think again about approachs in bad conditions - for a while anyway
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 14:51   #73 (permalink)
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Fuel Question.

I am not familiar with the metroliner, and far from experienced, but I have a question about the fuel range of the aircraft.

Given that the flight originated in Belfast, flew to Cork and made two approaches and then may have held for some period of time (ie the 20 minute queue, maybe waiting for the weather to improve?) before making a final approach, is it possible that at that time the fuel status necessitated an approach in to Cork again?

I'm not implying that they were close to emergency levels but if the weather over much of Ireland was similar is it possible they had no divert options at that point?

My deepest sympathies go to all who are involved or affected.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:03   #74 (permalink)
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Max - If fuel is expected to go below that required to divert to the (viable) alternate, plus 30 minutes holding, then a Mayday should be declared.

Cork would not have met requirements to "commit to stay"
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:09   #75 (permalink)
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Crash Cork Airport

What was weather like above the fog? visibility in fog can be very different up sun or down sun, perhaps that was the reason for the reverse approach
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:13   #76 (permalink)

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lets just say this company is quite adverse to diverts to airfields at which it doesnt have any presence.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:17   #77 (permalink)

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I flew metroliners in the middle 80's

I flew this type (and hold a type rating, USA in this type) in the middle 1980's.

We flew it at a regional airline in the USA. AT that time we were not required to have either a flight data recorder or a cockpit voice recorder. European rules may be different.

In the USA, even for regional airlines, YOU SIMPLY CANNOT BEGIN AN INSTRUMENT APPROACH BELOW MINIMUMS. IF the weather is reported below approach minimums, you may not even attempt the approach.

Our metroliners did not have autopilots whatsoever. Nothing. That's the way it was...now I'm not saying you couldn't put one in as (an option)...but the idea that this plane was Cat II is very, very unlikely.

Oddly enough, the short body version of the swerengin, crashed at the place I learned to fly...foggy night, no instrument approach. It seemed that during the go around it sucked a bird, or somehow lost an engine...and the plane rolled up side down, crashing and killing all aboard...

AS many of you know, if an engine fails during an instrument go around, you are suddely quite busy, and if you get too slow, upside down you go. (imagine full discussion of Vmca).

I would also like to point out something. Some operators of this type choose to make the approach with about half flaps, selecting full flaps upon visual with runway. Selecting full flaps can cause a slight roll..

I never cared for the metroliner. Noisy, cramped, POS of the highest order.

The rule of thumb here is one approach, two approach, go somewhere else...

Wondering if anti ice/ignition was selected for engines/props etc....I didn't look at the temps on the wx
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:25   #78 (permalink)
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Cork Jepp charts and AIP source:

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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:29   #79 (permalink)
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Attitudes at Manx2

Some time ago the IOM CAA sent a Spanish operator home because the crew couldn't speak English well enough. Might this incident be related? Perhaps they couldn't fully understand the controller and thus did not realise that the weather was that bad.

As the gentleman before said if they had diverted they would have got their hands slapped. Manx 2 have had MORs for trying to land at RAF Warton thinking it was Blackpool. I am reliably informed that some crew have level 4 certification but need a Slovak/English speaking Pilot on board to cover for them, why? If they have level 4 they should be able to understand.

Remember a couple of years ago when it was blowing over 50 kts in the Irish Sea a Manx2 L-410 was blown off its main u/c so that the tip tanks scrapped along the taxi-way on Ronaldsway.

It was only a matter of time. To much get there itis. Manx2 are a ticketing agency not an airline. This is down to Flightline BCN not Manx2. Manx2 can walk away any time, nobody official can touch them as selling the ticket is not illegal and also means that they have no responsibility.

Last edited by rabcnesbitt; 10th Feb 2011 at 15:42.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 15:36   #80 (permalink)
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Heathrow Harry:
No-one is going to wait for "the official report" for heavens sake - it might be years
On the contrary: everyone will have to wait for the official report. Anyone thinking they can learn from what they BELIEVE to be mistakes is highly likely to be making plenty of mistakes of their own.
...but we need to know what happened and why...
Not true. Your impatience does you no favours, Heathrow Harry in Haste.
I'll bet todays disaster will make a few people think again about approachs in bad conditions - for a while anyway
Why? What sort of extra thinking are you expecting people to do? If conditions are CatI, then CatI approaches are fine. If conditions are CatII, then a CatII approach needs to be made by CatII qualified crew, in a CatII certified aircraft, to a CatII runway. What extra are you proposing?
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