Crash-Cork Airport
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Dear Irish Pilot how many accident reports do you need to read where the fatal occurred on the third attempt to be convinced that this is bad practice.
CRM wise: First attempt unsuccessful, second likewise. Now on either there may have been a glimpse, hopefully of runway or approach lighting as apposed to road or car park. But my friend these were not successful approaches and barring a significant change in the weather why attempt a third. Well unless you had been daft enough to put on insufficient fuel in the first place in which case the pilot who should not be a pilot adopts the we will land mental model and kills or injures people. I have only been flying for 35 years so my comments may show a lack of maturity and reflect a degree of inexperience.
Of course the aircraft may well have had a severe mechanical or instrument failure at a critical point and that will come out in due course if that is the case.As professionals we should always be aware of those common flaws in human nature that in their broadest terms tend to lead to risk taking. I try to be aware of this, not least because I don't think that I am paid enough to take risks.
CRM wise: First attempt unsuccessful, second likewise. Now on either there may have been a glimpse, hopefully of runway or approach lighting as apposed to road or car park. But my friend these were not successful approaches and barring a significant change in the weather why attempt a third. Well unless you had been daft enough to put on insufficient fuel in the first place in which case the pilot who should not be a pilot adopts the we will land mental model and kills or injures people. I have only been flying for 35 years so my comments may show a lack of maturity and reflect a degree of inexperience.
Of course the aircraft may well have had a severe mechanical or instrument failure at a critical point and that will come out in due course if that is the case.As professionals we should always be aware of those common flaws in human nature that in their broadest terms tend to lead to risk taking. I try to be aware of this, not least because I don't think that I am paid enough to take risks.
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one approach, arrive stable at DA/DH...nothing in sight...go around ...no need for another approach if the first is properly done and no wx improvement reported from rvr transmissometers.
only do a second approach if there was a slight error, for example 1/2 dot high on GS ...come back, do it right and that's it.
third approach has by common knowledge through the ages is almost always a real attempt to go just a little bit lower to get in.
I once made 2 approaches at chicago midway, (4)...nothing...no point in doing it again
only do a second approach if there was a slight error, for example 1/2 dot high on GS ...come back, do it right and that's it.
third approach has by common knowledge through the ages is almost always a real attempt to go just a little bit lower to get in.
I once made 2 approaches at chicago midway, (4)...nothing...no point in doing it again
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The Kathryn Aviation Report: Cork plane crash: Spaniard not used to being in charge of flight deck. Swearingen SA-227BC Metro III, EC-ITP, Manx2
Seems like this was first flight as Commander according to "the kathryn report ".......
Seems like this was first flight as Commander according to "the kathryn report ".......
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Is my understanding correct that the captain was making his first flight as a captain and the first officer only graduated a few weeks ago?
Seems to me teaming an inexperienced captain with a more experienced FO would make more sense?
Seems to me teaming an inexperienced captain with a more experienced FO would make more sense?
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You can't tell anything from that picture of the prop. I've seen the aftermath of many prop strikes and the prop won't nescessarily fly to bits. I reckon all blades are bent, you just can't see it from this angle. Because the two you can see are bent the same way, then I think that the prop was turning.
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Look at the port engine in Machaca's photo http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6239293
One blade, towards the camera, is bent in the plane of rotation if feathered as shown. If the prop had not been feathered as shown upon contact with whatever caused the bending, but, say, in fine pitch as one would expect in this phase of flight, then this bending would be directly forward, that is, the wing would have been moving backwards relative to whatever caused the bending, as well as, coincidentally, at exactly the right angle wrt a rotating blade to bend it exactly forward.
One other visible blade doesn't appear to be bent at all. If so, then mildly, normal to the plane of the photo. The third blade is bent, again, if feathered, in the plane of rotation, and very strongly. Here, same story as above with the second, mildly bent, blade.
I don't think it can be ruled out that the blades were feathered when they hit whatever caused the bending. That is an indication to my mind of a possible abnormality with the engine/prop earlier than touchdown. But I am not expert on TPE331's or Metroliners.
One blade, towards the camera, is bent in the plane of rotation if feathered as shown. If the prop had not been feathered as shown upon contact with whatever caused the bending, but, say, in fine pitch as one would expect in this phase of flight, then this bending would be directly forward, that is, the wing would have been moving backwards relative to whatever caused the bending, as well as, coincidentally, at exactly the right angle wrt a rotating blade to bend it exactly forward.
One other visible blade doesn't appear to be bent at all. If so, then mildly, normal to the plane of the photo. The third blade is bent, again, if feathered, in the plane of rotation, and very strongly. Here, same story as above with the second, mildly bent, blade.
I don't think it can be ruled out that the blades were feathered when they hit whatever caused the bending. That is an indication to my mind of a possible abnormality with the engine/prop earlier than touchdown. But I am not expert on TPE331's or Metroliners.
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Jordi Sola Lopez was taking charge of one of his first flights as captain
Still it raises a question I have asked many times before: why has on to have only 500hrs before command in an FAR23 and 1500TT in an Commuter/FAR 25 aircraft to be captain along with a total newbie?
Lets face it, its flying solo even if the rightseater is top notch, experience is an essential asset....
The ...... in Brussels come up with all sorts of new stuff all the time but the essentials are overlooked or - I presume - not touched because of economic hardship for the companies...
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Ouch2 (Kegworth Survivor)
Your comment was all but ignored for that i'm sorry. 22 years on and it seemed only yesterday. (i saw your aircraft in it's last moments)
These threads often slip into blame culture but the majority of posters have the crew and passengers most in their minds.
Your comment was all but ignored for that i'm sorry. 22 years on and it seemed only yesterday. (i saw your aircraft in it's last moments)
These threads often slip into blame culture but the majority of posters have the crew and passengers most in their minds.
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As far as I understand, the Metroliner is certified under JAA as Single Pilot, as such, the training requirements would be limited to that set down in Operator's manuals. The operation of light commuter types, mostly limited to Cat 1 operations on these internal routes, known to suffer marginal weather, is, perhaps questionable. Multi crew types like F50, ATR, equipped to deal with these conditions make more sense.
(b) Minimum flight crew for operations under IFR or at Night.
For operations under IFR or at night, an operator shall ensure that :
(1) For all turbo-propeller aeroplanes with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 9 and for all turbojet aeroplanes, the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots.
(2) Aeroplanes other than those covered by sub-para (b)(1) above etc. etc.
-
and as there were more than 9 passenger seats (1) applies.
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So it wasn´t his first flight as Captain. Usually there is a supervision period in JAR/EU-OPS isn´t there? The operator will no doubt have to produce the supervision records...
Still it raises a question I have asked many times before: why has on to have only 500hrs before command in an FAR23 and 1500TT in an Commuter/FAR 25 aircraft to be captain along with a total newbie?
Lets face it, its flying solo even if the rightseater is top notch, experience is an essential asset....
The ...... in Brussels come up with all sorts of new stuff all the time but the essentials are overlooked or - I presume - not touched because of economic hardship for the companies...
Still it raises a question I have asked many times before: why has on to have only 500hrs before command in an FAR23 and 1500TT in an Commuter/FAR 25 aircraft to be captain along with a total newbie?
Lets face it, its flying solo even if the rightseater is top notch, experience is an essential asset....
The ...... in Brussels come up with all sorts of new stuff all the time but the essentials are overlooked or - I presume - not touched because of economic hardship for the companies...
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I am sure the flight crew were properly licensed and qualified to run this flight.
Qualified or not common sense says you don't do that. Rookies go with experienced Captains. Inexperienced Captains go with experienced FO's.
Join Date: May 2008
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One thing that struck me was how deep the fire vehicles sunk into the mud, and also the reeds that are visible in the photos. If the aircraft travelled along the runway for 190 yards as reported and veered off at an angle, is it possible that if the nose gear hit the mud at approx the same time or just before the stbd gear, that it could flip the aircraft if enough lift was still present?
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Just spotted this in the Irish Independent, while obviously taken with multiple grains of salt, it is quite specific.
"...It has now emerged the right wing tip of the Manx2 aircraft disastrously clipped the runway as it attempted to land for the third time in dense fog. The 19-year old Fairchild Metroliner then skidded for 190 metres on its back along the concrete runway before catching fire as it came to a stop on the grass verge in front of the airport terminal...."
"...It has now emerged the right wing tip of the Manx2 aircraft disastrously clipped the runway as it attempted to land for the third time in dense fog. The 19-year old Fairchild Metroliner then skidded for 190 metres on its back along the concrete runway before catching fire as it came to a stop on the grass verge in front of the airport terminal...."
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It seems that these latest descriptions are based on information of accident investigators after interviews with surviving passengers.
FINAL MOMENTS | Irish Examiner
The investigators have established that the Fairchild Metroliner’s right wing-tip hit the runway on landing, flipping the aircraft onto its roof, before it slid 190 metres along the runway, veering off to a muddy verge. Its right wing ruptured, spilling fuel onto the hot engine and sparking a fire. (...) Investigators said it would appear at this stage that the aircraft was operating normally until it hit the ground. "The wing touch was early on in the sequence," Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) deputy chief inspector Graham Liddy said.
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From FINAL MOMENTS
'He defended his pilots but said he could not confirm whether the aircraft was equipped to land in dense fog.'
Were they Mr Hayes pilots'? Surely not and shouldn't we be hearing from Flightline's management?
The article also says that the FO had been with the company a few weeks with 720 hours on type - a typo, surely?
'He defended his pilots but said he could not confirm whether the aircraft was equipped to land in dense fog.'
Were they Mr Hayes pilots'? Surely not and shouldn't we be hearing from Flightline's management?
The article also says that the FO had been with the company a few weeks with 720 hours on type - a typo, surely?
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Quote from post 308 by theavionicsbloke:
The most likely conclusion from the above, based upon visible evidence from the combination of pictures and AAIB statement to date, is that the port engine had stopped producing power pre impact and stop/feathering action had most likely been initiated by the crew, while the starboard engine was producing high power upon impact.
Pretty well the same conclusions that I had drawn from the photo in post 267. Possible scenario - left eng inop, right eng under power and right roll to inverted postion? Very confusing!
The most likely conclusion from the above, based upon visible evidence from the combination of pictures and AAIB statement to date, is that the port engine had stopped producing power pre impact and stop/feathering action had most likely been initiated by the crew, while the starboard engine was producing high power upon impact.
Pretty well the same conclusions that I had drawn from the photo in post 267. Possible scenario - left eng inop, right eng under power and right roll to inverted postion? Very confusing!
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'Investigators said it would appear at this stage that the aircraft was operating normally until it hit the ground.'
Which to my simple mind suggests that both engines were turning and burning. Did you read the article?
Which to my simple mind suggests that both engines were turning and burning. Did you read the article?
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From FINAL MOMENTS
'He defended his pilots but said he could not confirm whether the aircraft was equipped to land in dense fog.'
Were they Mr Hayes pilots'? Surely not and shouldn't we be hearing from Flightline's management?
The article also says that the FO had been with the company a few weeks with 720 hours on type - a typo, surely?
'He defended his pilots but said he could not confirm whether the aircraft was equipped to land in dense fog.'
Were they Mr Hayes pilots'? Surely not and shouldn't we be hearing from Flightline's management?
The article also says that the FO had been with the company a few weeks with 720 hours on type - a typo, surely?
I do know that some of the contracts between Manx2 and its up to now 12 AOC holders and counting state that if there is any diversion the AOC holder must repatriate the passengers to the original destination. Manx2 put the operators under tremendous financial pressure.
