SilkAir 185 - I do not get it..??
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SilkAir 185 - I do not get it..??
Having now had a chance to see the recent programme shown on TVNZ...I have the following questions that baffle me...
I can understand the Organisations from Singapore and Indonesia not wanting to appear on the programme but what I do not get is why the Australian Organisations and their people involved in the investigation did not agree to be interviewed..
Why won't they speak out.. Reasons given on the programme stated they did not want to upset their Asian neighbours.. I just do not buy this..
The NTSB have made it very clear they think the investigation was a sham. Could the reason for talking out and criticising the investigatioin be that they are trying to protect Boeing.. or somebody else for that matter.
I agree that Australia wants and needs to maintain relations with their neigbours for Business reasons...But so do they wish to maintain relations with the USA...so why do the not speak out in support of the NTSB theory..
Is it that the investigation actually discovered other information that the governments of USA,Australia, Singapore, and Indonesia would all rather remain a secret...
I simply do not get it...why the fear or apprehension about speaking out...with all the facts...THE TRUTH.
I can understand the Organisations from Singapore and Indonesia not wanting to appear on the programme but what I do not get is why the Australian Organisations and their people involved in the investigation did not agree to be interviewed..
Why won't they speak out.. Reasons given on the programme stated they did not want to upset their Asian neighbours.. I just do not buy this..
The NTSB have made it very clear they think the investigation was a sham. Could the reason for talking out and criticising the investigatioin be that they are trying to protect Boeing.. or somebody else for that matter.
I agree that Australia wants and needs to maintain relations with their neigbours for Business reasons...But so do they wish to maintain relations with the USA...so why do the not speak out in support of the NTSB theory..
Is it that the investigation actually discovered other information that the governments of USA,Australia, Singapore, and Indonesia would all rather remain a secret...
I simply do not get it...why the fear or apprehension about speaking out...with all the facts...THE TRUTH.
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Crockett,
Everyone in the area has to try and save face, the culture in Asia is just like that. If you have every operated in Jakarta it is not the best of ATC or radar and I assume is reflects somewhat to the performance of their overall aviation industry.
From my understanding the Australian involvement was technical back up and not the lead agent. Possible conclusions drawn from not knowing all the facts, as I am lead to believe in the Australian do not do anyone favors. As technical backup the role is just a “clearing house” for the evidence, and report on the same to the lead agent.
I have not seen the TV program you refer to, however I understand that the F/O was from New Zealand, and blaming the crew (i.e. partially a New Zealand FO) is not palatable in New Zealand if it is not warranted.
Theories are great, but until someone can identify particular irrefutable facts as to the cause the accident it will remain inconclusive.
The attitude in the US is that Boeing (for that matter any aircraft/helicopter manufacturer in the US) can never do any wrong. They protect their own industry. When an accident occurs, they move on and keep going like nothing happened.
My personal view is that when the NTSB starts crying foul pilot error, I will be looking for problem with the aircraft. I am less than convinced with other incidents like the Egyptair and Swissair where the dead crew were essentially blamed.
How long did it take to get the 737 rudder problem sorted ? When was the jet ranger tail gear box fixed ? Both caused countless lives to to be lost, but their industry strives along at the cost of a few.
Everyone in the area has to try and save face, the culture in Asia is just like that. If you have every operated in Jakarta it is not the best of ATC or radar and I assume is reflects somewhat to the performance of their overall aviation industry.
From my understanding the Australian involvement was technical back up and not the lead agent. Possible conclusions drawn from not knowing all the facts, as I am lead to believe in the Australian do not do anyone favors. As technical backup the role is just a “clearing house” for the evidence, and report on the same to the lead agent.
I have not seen the TV program you refer to, however I understand that the F/O was from New Zealand, and blaming the crew (i.e. partially a New Zealand FO) is not palatable in New Zealand if it is not warranted.
Theories are great, but until someone can identify particular irrefutable facts as to the cause the accident it will remain inconclusive.
The attitude in the US is that Boeing (for that matter any aircraft/helicopter manufacturer in the US) can never do any wrong. They protect their own industry. When an accident occurs, they move on and keep going like nothing happened.
My personal view is that when the NTSB starts crying foul pilot error, I will be looking for problem with the aircraft. I am less than convinced with other incidents like the Egyptair and Swissair where the dead crew were essentially blamed.
How long did it take to get the 737 rudder problem sorted ? When was the jet ranger tail gear box fixed ? Both caused countless lives to to be lost, but their industry strives along at the cost of a few.
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Zeke
I tend to lean in your direction....of opinion...
Whilst there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest that the pilot may have had cause....there is some evidence that suggests that he did not...
I guess the real problem is that the effort to really identify the truth and make it public in the interest of Aviation Safety does not seem of paramount importance by all parties involved... Rather, the result as it stands at present is okay with the airline, the manufacturer and all others involved..
The losers here are the Next of Kin and the flying public as a whole...Very Sad indeed that apparently, BIG business and politics wins again..
One day, the truth will be known...It may take a while but I am confident that whomever is responsible for the SilkAir 185 crash will be identified one day.. Fate/Karma has a way of dealing with this type of event..aswell as committed Next of Kin who continue on with their quest for the truth..
I tend to lean in your direction....of opinion...
Whilst there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest that the pilot may have had cause....there is some evidence that suggests that he did not...
I guess the real problem is that the effort to really identify the truth and make it public in the interest of Aviation Safety does not seem of paramount importance by all parties involved... Rather, the result as it stands at present is okay with the airline, the manufacturer and all others involved..
The losers here are the Next of Kin and the flying public as a whole...Very Sad indeed that apparently, BIG business and politics wins again..
One day, the truth will be known...It may take a while but I am confident that whomever is responsible for the SilkAir 185 crash will be identified one day.. Fate/Karma has a way of dealing with this type of event..aswell as committed Next of Kin who continue on with their quest for the truth..
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CONFUSING -
While there has been a certain amount of convincing 'evidence' presented, the one question that remains is, "Where was the co-pilot during the described maneuver???"
Given the NTSB scammed investigations of the past (and those they refused to investigate), I remain damned curious as to the more probable events.
Especially with the NTSB taking the position on the Thai B-737, either the entire Boeing fleet needs to be grounded immediately, or some data needs to be obtained from an independent laboratory.
In the Thai explosion, the NTSB failed to account for the ignition source. Hot vapors are not enough to ignite A-1.
An actual explosion of the center tank would have ignited the adjacent wing tanks via the vent system. So, what really happened?
I won't totally discount the SilkAir possibility, but I'd like to know more in the way of true facts.
While there has been a certain amount of convincing 'evidence' presented, the one question that remains is, "Where was the co-pilot during the described maneuver???"
Given the NTSB scammed investigations of the past (and those they refused to investigate), I remain damned curious as to the more probable events.
Especially with the NTSB taking the position on the Thai B-737, either the entire Boeing fleet needs to be grounded immediately, or some data needs to be obtained from an independent laboratory.
In the Thai explosion, the NTSB failed to account for the ignition source. Hot vapors are not enough to ignite A-1.
An actual explosion of the center tank would have ignited the adjacent wing tanks via the vent system. So, what really happened?
I won't totally discount the SilkAir possibility, but I'd like to know more in the way of true facts.
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Sky Drifter..
I am glad you ask the question..."Where was the co-pilot during the described manoeuvre"..??
At the present time, it is all just a theory that the co-pilot was not in the cockpit..As we all know the CVR and later the FDR were not working or were switched off ?? so we have no real knowledge of what went on and who was in the cockpit...and we will never really know what went on in the cockpit because of the lack of CVR and FDR data..
If you go by what was on the CVR until it went off, the co-pilot was in the cockpit and the Captain was out of the cockpit or at least leaving it.. I assume he (the Captain) did actually leave the cockpit because, the Co-Pilot was several minutes later on the radio with air traffic control..
The TVNZ programme was naturally produced with the intent of defending the Co - Pilot and embarrassing the Government of Singapore and the airline.. Personally, I have no problem with this as any exposure to the current situation to the public is good exposure. Whilst the programme may have been partially imbalanced, it still serves to keep the subject in the public eye..and to be honest, the Singaporeans, the Indonesians and all the other countries involved do deserve some criticism for their handling of this particular crash investigation and the for the manner in which the families (Next of Kin) have been treated and for the manner in which they have all shown that, the apparent interest or commitment in enhancing aviation is simply not there at all..
For whatever reason, there appears to be no apparent sense of urgency or commitment to get the truth made public and actions taken to make changes to improve the flying safety of the public by all concerned.
I am disgusted with the entire affair...
I am glad you ask the question..."Where was the co-pilot during the described manoeuvre"..??
At the present time, it is all just a theory that the co-pilot was not in the cockpit..As we all know the CVR and later the FDR were not working or were switched off ?? so we have no real knowledge of what went on and who was in the cockpit...and we will never really know what went on in the cockpit because of the lack of CVR and FDR data..
If you go by what was on the CVR until it went off, the co-pilot was in the cockpit and the Captain was out of the cockpit or at least leaving it.. I assume he (the Captain) did actually leave the cockpit because, the Co-Pilot was several minutes later on the radio with air traffic control..
The TVNZ programme was naturally produced with the intent of defending the Co - Pilot and embarrassing the Government of Singapore and the airline.. Personally, I have no problem with this as any exposure to the current situation to the public is good exposure. Whilst the programme may have been partially imbalanced, it still serves to keep the subject in the public eye..and to be honest, the Singaporeans, the Indonesians and all the other countries involved do deserve some criticism for their handling of this particular crash investigation and the for the manner in which the families (Next of Kin) have been treated and for the manner in which they have all shown that, the apparent interest or commitment in enhancing aviation is simply not there at all..
For whatever reason, there appears to be no apparent sense of urgency or commitment to get the truth made public and actions taken to make changes to improve the flying safety of the public by all concerned.
I am disgusted with the entire affair...
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B 772
No one knows whether the Co-Pilot was incapacitated... The CVR and FDR had been inoperable for some 8 minutes and 2 minutes or so respectively before the aircraft went into the dive..
The last words on the CVR were of the Captain leaving the cockpit...and the last words from the aircraft with traffic/ground control were between the co-pilot and ground control..some two minutes or so before the dive.
The incapacitated theory is just that "A theory"...it has not been proven and will never be as far as I can see..
No one knows whether the Co-Pilot was incapacitated... The CVR and FDR had been inoperable for some 8 minutes and 2 minutes or so respectively before the aircraft went into the dive..
The last words on the CVR were of the Captain leaving the cockpit...and the last words from the aircraft with traffic/ground control were between the co-pilot and ground control..some two minutes or so before the dive.
The incapacitated theory is just that "A theory"...it has not been proven and will never be as far as I can see..
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Sadly Crockett, those more cynical of us fear that the object of most investigations (at least those in Asia and Oceania) is not to fairly apportion blame but to ensure that blame is not directed towards those in authority.
Most media reports are distorted but as you say they help to keep the issue in the spotlight.
I am sorry to say that that, perhaps, is only the best we can now hope for.
Best Wishes.
Most media reports are distorted but as you say they help to keep the issue in the spotlight.
I am sorry to say that that, perhaps, is only the best we can now hope for.
Best Wishes.
Guest
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That two competent pilots allowed the aircraft to go into a dive on autopilot with full throttle is just a bit far fetched, don't you think?
Maybe B772 was a little too subtle for some of you. Try changing the word incapacitated into terminated.
I do understand that many people with a minimal aeronautical grounding feel more comfortable with any theory that includes mechanical failure. The idea that one person can be directly responsible for so much carnage doesn't fit well with our humantiarian side. It is also an unnerving thought for any passenger. However, history shows this to rarely be the case.
I know the pressure that working for a company like SIA(Silkair) and living in a country like Singapore can bring where your entire value as a human being is measured in monetary terms.
Maybe B772 was a little too subtle for some of you. Try changing the word incapacitated into terminated.
I do understand that many people with a minimal aeronautical grounding feel more comfortable with any theory that includes mechanical failure. The idea that one person can be directly responsible for so much carnage doesn't fit well with our humantiarian side. It is also an unnerving thought for any passenger. However, history shows this to rarely be the case.
I know the pressure that working for a company like SIA(Silkair) and living in a country like Singapore can bring where your entire value as a human being is measured in monetary terms.
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Titan
Thinking of an A320 accident that happened in India where the crew selected 3000 ft/min descent instead if a 3 deg down flight path angle, aircraft flew into the ground on autopilot. A simple push button switch changes the autopilot mode from flight path angle to vertical speed.
Its called CFIT, unfortunately it has happened a far bit, some other examples American Airlines B757 Cali, Air New Zealand DC10 Mt Erebus, or more recently Gulf Air 072 where the crew flew the aircraft into the ground when they were too quick for the approach and decided to do a low level orbit to lose speed.
It does happen, unfortunately too often.
This is a list of all B737s that have been written off, surely they all could not have been due to “pilot error” or “suicide tendencies on the part of the crew”
01 APR 2001 According to the Indian Court of Inquiry final report, the Air Alliance B737 crash (July 2000) was caused by a loss of control; the crew had not followed the correct approach procedure and allowed the plane to stall and crash.accident description
I have just sorted these in date order……..
[list=1][*] B737-222 W/O 19JUL70 UNITED AIRLINES N9005U PHILADELPHIA, PA[*] B737-222 W/O 08DEC72 UNITED AIRLINES N9031U CHICAGO, IL[*] B737-2A8 W/O 31MAY73 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EAM DELHI, INDIA[*] B737-247 W/O 31MAR75 WESTERN AIRLINES N4527W CASPER, WY[*] B737-2H6(A) W/O 04DEC77 MALAYSIA AIRLINES (ILFC) 9M-MBD SINGAPORE, MALAYSIA[*] B737-275 W/O 11FEB78 PACIFIC WESTERN AIRLINES CF-PWC CRANBROOK, BRITISH COLUMBIA[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 03APR78 VASP PP-SMX CONGOHAS, BRAZIL[*] B737-229C(A) W/O 04APR78 SABENA OO-SDH CHARLEROI, BELGIUM[*] B737-2A8 W/O 17DEC78 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EAL HYDERABAD, INDIA[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 26APR79 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-ECR MADRAS, INDIA[*] B737-2M2C(A) W/O 05NOV80 TAAG ANGOLA AIRLINES D2-TAA BENGUALA, ANGOLA[*] B737-293 W/O 17FEB81 AIR CALIFORNIA N468AC SANTA ANA, CA[*] B737-222 W/O 22AUG81 FAR EASTERN AIR TRANSPORT B-2603 TAIPEI, TAIWAN[*] B737-222 W/O 13JAN82 AIR FLORIDA N62AF WASHINGTON, DC[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 24MAY82 VASP PP-SMY BRASILIA, BRAZIL[*] B737-2Q3(A) W/O 26AUG82 SOUTHWEST AIRLINES - JAPAN JA8444 ISHIGAKI, JAPAN[*] B737-2A1C(A) W/O 22FEB83 VASP PP-SNC MANAUS, BRAZIL[*] B737-2B1 W/O 28MAR83 LAM - MOZAMBIQUE C9-BAB QUELIMANE, MOZAMBIQUE[*] B737-2V2(A) W/O 11JUL83 TAME HC-BIG CUENCA, ECUADOR[*] B737-2P6(A) W/O 23SEP83 GULF AIR A40-BK DUBAI, ABU DHABI[*] B737-2M2(A) W/O 09NOV83 TAAG ANGOLA AIRLINES D2-TBN LU BANGO, ANGOLA[*] B737-2M2(A) W/O 09FEB84 TAAG ANGOLA AIRLINES D2-TBV HUAMBO, ANGOLA[*] B737-275(A) W/O 22MAR84 PACIFIC WESTERN AIRLINES C-GQPW CALGARY, ALBERTA[*] B737-2H7C(A) W/O 30AUG84 CAMEROON AIRLINES TJ-CBD DOUALA, CAMEROON[*] B737-2P5(A) W/O 15APR85 THAI AIRWAYS HS-TBB PHUKET, THAILAND[*] B737-236(A) W/O 22AUG85 BRITISH AIR TOURS G-BGJL MANCHESTER, ENGLAND[*] B737-266(A) W/O 24NOV85 EGYPT AIR SU-AYH LUQA, MALTA[*] B737-2A1 W/O 28JAN86 VASP PP-SME GUARULHOS, BRAZIL[*] B737-281 W/O 16FEB86 CHINA AIRLINES B-1870 MAKUNG, TAIWAN[*] B737-286(A) W/O 15OCT86 IRAN AIR EP-IRG SHIRAZ, IRAN[*] B737-222 W/O 25OCT86 PIEDMONT AIRLINES N752N CHARLOTTE, NC[*] B737-270C(A) W/O 25DEC86 IRAQI AIRWAYS YI-AGJ ARAR, SAUDI ARABIA[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 04AUG87 LAN CHILE CC-CHJ SANTIAGO, CHILE[*] B737-2P5(A) W/O 31AUG87 THAI AIRWAYS HS-TBC PHUKET, THAILAND[*] B737-230(A) W/O 02JAN88 CONDOR D-ABHD IZMIR, TURKEY[*] B737-297 W/O 29APR88 ALOHA AIRLINES N73711 KAHULUI, HAWAII[*] B737-260(A) W/O 16SEP88 ETHIOPIAN AIRLINES ET-AJA BAHAR DAR, ETHIOPIA[*] B737-287(A) W/O 26SEP88 AEROLINEAS ARGENTINAS LV-LIU USHUAIA, ARGENTINA[*] B737-2A8 W/O 19OCT88 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EAH AHMADABAD, INDIA[*] B737-4Y0 W/O 08JAN89 BRITISH MIDLAND (GPAG) G-OBME LEICESTER, ENGLAND[*] B737-2B1(A) W/O 09FEB89 LAM - MOZAMBIQUE C9-BAD LICHINGA, MOZAMBIQUE[*] B737-248 W/O 03APR89 FAUCETT PERU OB-1314 IQUITOS, PERU[*] B737-241(A) W/O 03SEP89 VARIG PP-VMK S. JOSE DO XINGU, BRAZIL[*] B737-401 W/O 21SEP89 US AIR N416US LAGUARDIA AIRPORT[*] B737-209(A) W/O 26OCT89 CHINA AIRLINES B-180 HUALIEN, TAIWAN[*] B737-204 W/O 30DEC89 AMERICA WEST AIRLINES (ASC) N198AW TUCSON[*] B737-2X6C(A) W/O 02JUN90 MARKAIR N670MA UNALAKLEET, ALASKA[*] B737-222 W/O 22JUL90 US AIR N210US KINSTON, NC[*] B737-247(A) W/O 02OCT90 XIAMEN AIRWAYS B-2510 CANTON, CHINA[*] B737-3Y0 W/O 05NOV90 PHILIPPINE AIRLINES (GPAG) EI-BZG MANILA[*] B737-3B7 W/O 01FEB91 US AIR N388US LOS ANGELES[*] B737-291(A) W/O 04MAR91 UNITED AIRLINES N999UA COLORADO SPRINGS, CO[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 16AUG91 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EFL IMPHAL, INDIA[*] B737-2K6(A) W/O 17NOV91 SAHSA (GPAG) EI-CBL SAN JOSE, COSTA RICA[*] B737-204(A) W/O 07JUN92 COPA PANAMA (BRITANNIA) HP-1205CMP LA PALMA, PANAMA[*] B737-2A1C(A) W/O 22JUN92 VASP PP-SND CRUZIERO DO SUL, BRAZIL[*] B737-287C W/O 20NOV92 AEROLINEAS ARGENTINAS LV-JNE SAN LUIS[*] B737-3Y0 W/O 24NOV92 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES (GPAG) B-2523 GUILIN, CHINA[*] B737-3Z6 W/O 30MAR93 ROYAL THAI AIR FORCE 33-333 BANGKOK[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 26APR93 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-ECQ AURANGABAD, INDIA[*] B737-2H6(A) W/O 18JUL93 SAHSA (ILFC) N401SH MANAGUA, NICARAGUA[*] B737-5L9 W/O 26JUL93 ASIANA (DMA) HL7229 MOKPO, KOREA[*] B737-112 W/O 19NOV93 COPA PANAMA HP-873CMP PANAMA CITY, PANAMA[*] B737-2R4C(A) W/O 08MAR94 SAHARA INDIA AIRLINES VT-SIA DELHI, INDIA[*] B737-3W0 W/O 29JUL94 YUNNAN PROVINCIAL B-2540 KUNMING, CHINA[*] B737-3B7 W/O 08SEP94 US AIR N513AU PITTSBURGH[*] B737-2C0 W/O 26NOV94 CONTINENTAL AIRLINES N11244 HOUSTON[*] B737-2D6C(A) W/O 21DEC94 AIR ALGERIE 7T-VEE COVENTRY, UK[*] B737-4Y0 W/O 29DEC94 TURKISH AIRLINES (GPAG) TC-JES VAN, TURKEY[*] B737-298C(A) W/O 02JAN95 KINSHASA AIR ZAIRE 9Q-CNI RAN OFF R/W, GEAR FAILED[*] B737-281(A) W/O 16JAN95 SEMPATI AIR (ASEAN LEASE) PK-JHF JOGJAKARTA[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 02FEB95 VASP PP-SMV SAO PAULO, BRAZIL[*] B737-2H6(A) W/O 09AUG95 AVIATECA (ILFC) N125GU SAN SALVADOR[*] B737-2F9(A) W/O 13NOV95 NIGERIA AIRWAYS 5N-AUA KADUNA[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 02DEC95 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-ECS DELHI - OVERRAN INTO SOFT GND[*] B737-2K9(A) W/O 03DEC95 CAMEROON AIRLINES TJ-CBE DOUALA[*] B737-222 W/O 29FEB96 FAUCETT PERU (IALI) OB-1451 AREQUIPA, PERU[*] CT-43A (B737-253) W/O 03APR96 UNITED STATES AIR FORCE 73-1149 DUBROVNIK, CROATIA[*] B737-2D6C(A) W/O 02AUG96 AIR ALGERIE 7T-VED TIEMCEN, ALGERIA[*] B737-2C3(A) W/O 14FEB97 VARIG PP-CJO CARAJAS, BRAZIL[*] B737-31B W/O 08MAY97 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES B-2925 SHENZHEN, CHINA[*] B737-242C W/O 03AUG97 AIR AFRIQUE (POLA) TU-TAV DOUALA, CAMEROON[*] B737-268(A) W/O 06SEP97 SAUDI ARABIAN AIRLINES HZ-AGM NAJRAN, SAUDI ARABIA[*] B737-36N W/O 19DEC97 SILKAIR (GECA) 9V-TRF PALEMBANG, INDONESIA[*] B737-291 W/O 02FEB98 (RAM AIR SALES) N737RD DBER IN TORNADO - MIA[*] B737-2K3(A) W/O 26FEB98 CHANCHANGI AIRLINES (AGX) YU-ANU LAGOS, NIGERIA[*] B737-2H4(A) W/O 12APR98 ORIENT EAGLE AIRWAYS (PALM BCH AERO) P4-NEN ALMATY, KAZAKSTAN[*] B737-282(A) W/O 05MAY98 PERU AIR FORCE FAP-351 ANDOAS, PERU[*] B737-2J8C(A) W/O 19JUL98 SUDAN AIRWAYS ST-AFL KHARTOUM, SUDAN[*] B737-524 W/O 16SEP98 CONTINENTAL AIRLINES N20643 GUADALAHARA, MEXICO - FUSELAGE @ MHV DEC99[*] B737-2P6(A) W/O 01NOV98 AIR TRAN AIRWAYS (GECA) EI-CJW ATLANTA[*] B737-228(A) W/O 04MAR99 AIR FRANCE F-GBYA BIARRITZ[*] B737-4Q8 W/O 06APR99 TURKISH AIRLINES (ILFC) TC-JEP CEYHAN, TURKEY[*] B737-247 W/O 10MAY99 MEXICAN AIR FORCE XC-IJI LOMA BONITA, MEXICO[*] B737-2A6 W/O 17MAY99 LADECO AIRLINES (CORS) CC-CYR [*] B737-3Y0 W/O 09JUN99 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES (GECA) B-2525 ZHANJIANG, CHINA[*] B737-204C W/O 31AUG99 LAPA LV-WRZ BUENOS AIRES[*] B737-3T5 W/O 05MAR00 SOUTHWEST AIRLINES N668SW BUR OVERSHOT R/W ON LDG[*] B737-2H4(A) W/O 19APR00 AIR PHILIPPINES RP-C3010 DAVAO, PHILIPPINES[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 17JUL00 ALLIANCE AIR VT-EGD PATNA, INDIA[*] B737-4D7 W/O 03MAR01 THAI AIRWAYS INTL HS-TDC BANGKOK, THAILAND[/list=a]
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">That two competent pilots allowed the aircraft to go into a dive on autopilot with full throttle is just a bit far fetched, don't you think?</font>
Its called CFIT, unfortunately it has happened a far bit, some other examples American Airlines B757 Cali, Air New Zealand DC10 Mt Erebus, or more recently Gulf Air 072 where the crew flew the aircraft into the ground when they were too quick for the approach and decided to do a low level orbit to lose speed.
It does happen, unfortunately too often.
This is a list of all B737s that have been written off, surely they all could not have been due to “pilot error” or “suicide tendencies on the part of the crew”
01 APR 2001 According to the Indian Court of Inquiry final report, the Air Alliance B737 crash (July 2000) was caused by a loss of control; the crew had not followed the correct approach procedure and allowed the plane to stall and crash.accident description
I have just sorted these in date order……..
[list=1][*] B737-222 W/O 19JUL70 UNITED AIRLINES N9005U PHILADELPHIA, PA[*] B737-222 W/O 08DEC72 UNITED AIRLINES N9031U CHICAGO, IL[*] B737-2A8 W/O 31MAY73 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EAM DELHI, INDIA[*] B737-247 W/O 31MAR75 WESTERN AIRLINES N4527W CASPER, WY[*] B737-2H6(A) W/O 04DEC77 MALAYSIA AIRLINES (ILFC) 9M-MBD SINGAPORE, MALAYSIA[*] B737-275 W/O 11FEB78 PACIFIC WESTERN AIRLINES CF-PWC CRANBROOK, BRITISH COLUMBIA[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 03APR78 VASP PP-SMX CONGOHAS, BRAZIL[*] B737-229C(A) W/O 04APR78 SABENA OO-SDH CHARLEROI, BELGIUM[*] B737-2A8 W/O 17DEC78 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EAL HYDERABAD, INDIA[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 26APR79 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-ECR MADRAS, INDIA[*] B737-2M2C(A) W/O 05NOV80 TAAG ANGOLA AIRLINES D2-TAA BENGUALA, ANGOLA[*] B737-293 W/O 17FEB81 AIR CALIFORNIA N468AC SANTA ANA, CA[*] B737-222 W/O 22AUG81 FAR EASTERN AIR TRANSPORT B-2603 TAIPEI, TAIWAN[*] B737-222 W/O 13JAN82 AIR FLORIDA N62AF WASHINGTON, DC[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 24MAY82 VASP PP-SMY BRASILIA, BRAZIL[*] B737-2Q3(A) W/O 26AUG82 SOUTHWEST AIRLINES - JAPAN JA8444 ISHIGAKI, JAPAN[*] B737-2A1C(A) W/O 22FEB83 VASP PP-SNC MANAUS, BRAZIL[*] B737-2B1 W/O 28MAR83 LAM - MOZAMBIQUE C9-BAB QUELIMANE, MOZAMBIQUE[*] B737-2V2(A) W/O 11JUL83 TAME HC-BIG CUENCA, ECUADOR[*] B737-2P6(A) W/O 23SEP83 GULF AIR A40-BK DUBAI, ABU DHABI[*] B737-2M2(A) W/O 09NOV83 TAAG ANGOLA AIRLINES D2-TBN LU BANGO, ANGOLA[*] B737-2M2(A) W/O 09FEB84 TAAG ANGOLA AIRLINES D2-TBV HUAMBO, ANGOLA[*] B737-275(A) W/O 22MAR84 PACIFIC WESTERN AIRLINES C-GQPW CALGARY, ALBERTA[*] B737-2H7C(A) W/O 30AUG84 CAMEROON AIRLINES TJ-CBD DOUALA, CAMEROON[*] B737-2P5(A) W/O 15APR85 THAI AIRWAYS HS-TBB PHUKET, THAILAND[*] B737-236(A) W/O 22AUG85 BRITISH AIR TOURS G-BGJL MANCHESTER, ENGLAND[*] B737-266(A) W/O 24NOV85 EGYPT AIR SU-AYH LUQA, MALTA[*] B737-2A1 W/O 28JAN86 VASP PP-SME GUARULHOS, BRAZIL[*] B737-281 W/O 16FEB86 CHINA AIRLINES B-1870 MAKUNG, TAIWAN[*] B737-286(A) W/O 15OCT86 IRAN AIR EP-IRG SHIRAZ, IRAN[*] B737-222 W/O 25OCT86 PIEDMONT AIRLINES N752N CHARLOTTE, NC[*] B737-270C(A) W/O 25DEC86 IRAQI AIRWAYS YI-AGJ ARAR, SAUDI ARABIA[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 04AUG87 LAN CHILE CC-CHJ SANTIAGO, CHILE[*] B737-2P5(A) W/O 31AUG87 THAI AIRWAYS HS-TBC PHUKET, THAILAND[*] B737-230(A) W/O 02JAN88 CONDOR D-ABHD IZMIR, TURKEY[*] B737-297 W/O 29APR88 ALOHA AIRLINES N73711 KAHULUI, HAWAII[*] B737-260(A) W/O 16SEP88 ETHIOPIAN AIRLINES ET-AJA BAHAR DAR, ETHIOPIA[*] B737-287(A) W/O 26SEP88 AEROLINEAS ARGENTINAS LV-LIU USHUAIA, ARGENTINA[*] B737-2A8 W/O 19OCT88 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EAH AHMADABAD, INDIA[*] B737-4Y0 W/O 08JAN89 BRITISH MIDLAND (GPAG) G-OBME LEICESTER, ENGLAND[*] B737-2B1(A) W/O 09FEB89 LAM - MOZAMBIQUE C9-BAD LICHINGA, MOZAMBIQUE[*] B737-248 W/O 03APR89 FAUCETT PERU OB-1314 IQUITOS, PERU[*] B737-241(A) W/O 03SEP89 VARIG PP-VMK S. JOSE DO XINGU, BRAZIL[*] B737-401 W/O 21SEP89 US AIR N416US LAGUARDIA AIRPORT[*] B737-209(A) W/O 26OCT89 CHINA AIRLINES B-180 HUALIEN, TAIWAN[*] B737-204 W/O 30DEC89 AMERICA WEST AIRLINES (ASC) N198AW TUCSON[*] B737-2X6C(A) W/O 02JUN90 MARKAIR N670MA UNALAKLEET, ALASKA[*] B737-222 W/O 22JUL90 US AIR N210US KINSTON, NC[*] B737-247(A) W/O 02OCT90 XIAMEN AIRWAYS B-2510 CANTON, CHINA[*] B737-3Y0 W/O 05NOV90 PHILIPPINE AIRLINES (GPAG) EI-BZG MANILA[*] B737-3B7 W/O 01FEB91 US AIR N388US LOS ANGELES[*] B737-291(A) W/O 04MAR91 UNITED AIRLINES N999UA COLORADO SPRINGS, CO[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 16AUG91 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-EFL IMPHAL, INDIA[*] B737-2K6(A) W/O 17NOV91 SAHSA (GPAG) EI-CBL SAN JOSE, COSTA RICA[*] B737-204(A) W/O 07JUN92 COPA PANAMA (BRITANNIA) HP-1205CMP LA PALMA, PANAMA[*] B737-2A1C(A) W/O 22JUN92 VASP PP-SND CRUZIERO DO SUL, BRAZIL[*] B737-287C W/O 20NOV92 AEROLINEAS ARGENTINAS LV-JNE SAN LUIS[*] B737-3Y0 W/O 24NOV92 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES (GPAG) B-2523 GUILIN, CHINA[*] B737-3Z6 W/O 30MAR93 ROYAL THAI AIR FORCE 33-333 BANGKOK[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 26APR93 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-ECQ AURANGABAD, INDIA[*] B737-2H6(A) W/O 18JUL93 SAHSA (ILFC) N401SH MANAGUA, NICARAGUA[*] B737-5L9 W/O 26JUL93 ASIANA (DMA) HL7229 MOKPO, KOREA[*] B737-112 W/O 19NOV93 COPA PANAMA HP-873CMP PANAMA CITY, PANAMA[*] B737-2R4C(A) W/O 08MAR94 SAHARA INDIA AIRLINES VT-SIA DELHI, INDIA[*] B737-3W0 W/O 29JUL94 YUNNAN PROVINCIAL B-2540 KUNMING, CHINA[*] B737-3B7 W/O 08SEP94 US AIR N513AU PITTSBURGH[*] B737-2C0 W/O 26NOV94 CONTINENTAL AIRLINES N11244 HOUSTON[*] B737-2D6C(A) W/O 21DEC94 AIR ALGERIE 7T-VEE COVENTRY, UK[*] B737-4Y0 W/O 29DEC94 TURKISH AIRLINES (GPAG) TC-JES VAN, TURKEY[*] B737-298C(A) W/O 02JAN95 KINSHASA AIR ZAIRE 9Q-CNI RAN OFF R/W, GEAR FAILED[*] B737-281(A) W/O 16JAN95 SEMPATI AIR (ASEAN LEASE) PK-JHF JOGJAKARTA[*] B737-2A1(A) W/O 02FEB95 VASP PP-SMV SAO PAULO, BRAZIL[*] B737-2H6(A) W/O 09AUG95 AVIATECA (ILFC) N125GU SAN SALVADOR[*] B737-2F9(A) W/O 13NOV95 NIGERIA AIRWAYS 5N-AUA KADUNA[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 02DEC95 INDIAN AIRLINES VT-ECS DELHI - OVERRAN INTO SOFT GND[*] B737-2K9(A) W/O 03DEC95 CAMEROON AIRLINES TJ-CBE DOUALA[*] B737-222 W/O 29FEB96 FAUCETT PERU (IALI) OB-1451 AREQUIPA, PERU[*] CT-43A (B737-253) W/O 03APR96 UNITED STATES AIR FORCE 73-1149 DUBROVNIK, CROATIA[*] B737-2D6C(A) W/O 02AUG96 AIR ALGERIE 7T-VED TIEMCEN, ALGERIA[*] B737-2C3(A) W/O 14FEB97 VARIG PP-CJO CARAJAS, BRAZIL[*] B737-31B W/O 08MAY97 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES B-2925 SHENZHEN, CHINA[*] B737-242C W/O 03AUG97 AIR AFRIQUE (POLA) TU-TAV DOUALA, CAMEROON[*] B737-268(A) W/O 06SEP97 SAUDI ARABIAN AIRLINES HZ-AGM NAJRAN, SAUDI ARABIA[*] B737-36N W/O 19DEC97 SILKAIR (GECA) 9V-TRF PALEMBANG, INDONESIA[*] B737-291 W/O 02FEB98 (RAM AIR SALES) N737RD DBER IN TORNADO - MIA[*] B737-2K3(A) W/O 26FEB98 CHANCHANGI AIRLINES (AGX) YU-ANU LAGOS, NIGERIA[*] B737-2H4(A) W/O 12APR98 ORIENT EAGLE AIRWAYS (PALM BCH AERO) P4-NEN ALMATY, KAZAKSTAN[*] B737-282(A) W/O 05MAY98 PERU AIR FORCE FAP-351 ANDOAS, PERU[*] B737-2J8C(A) W/O 19JUL98 SUDAN AIRWAYS ST-AFL KHARTOUM, SUDAN[*] B737-524 W/O 16SEP98 CONTINENTAL AIRLINES N20643 GUADALAHARA, MEXICO - FUSELAGE @ MHV DEC99[*] B737-2P6(A) W/O 01NOV98 AIR TRAN AIRWAYS (GECA) EI-CJW ATLANTA[*] B737-228(A) W/O 04MAR99 AIR FRANCE F-GBYA BIARRITZ[*] B737-4Q8 W/O 06APR99 TURKISH AIRLINES (ILFC) TC-JEP CEYHAN, TURKEY[*] B737-247 W/O 10MAY99 MEXICAN AIR FORCE XC-IJI LOMA BONITA, MEXICO[*] B737-2A6 W/O 17MAY99 LADECO AIRLINES (CORS) CC-CYR [*] B737-3Y0 W/O 09JUN99 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES (GECA) B-2525 ZHANJIANG, CHINA[*] B737-204C W/O 31AUG99 LAPA LV-WRZ BUENOS AIRES[*] B737-3T5 W/O 05MAR00 SOUTHWEST AIRLINES N668SW BUR OVERSHOT R/W ON LDG[*] B737-2H4(A) W/O 19APR00 AIR PHILIPPINES RP-C3010 DAVAO, PHILIPPINES[*] B737-2A8(A) W/O 17JUL00 ALLIANCE AIR VT-EGD PATNA, INDIA[*] B737-4D7 W/O 03MAR01 THAI AIRWAYS INTL HS-TDC BANGKOK, THAILAND[/list=a]
Guest
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PERSPECTIVE -
Reasonable confusion during a maneuvering phase is understandable. However, cruise flight is radically different.
Given the 'politically correct' data distortion of ValuJet 592 - notably the impossible dive - I just don't trust this one. The NTSB is, unfortunately, famous for data distortion as early as the 'Hoot' Gibson 727 tumble.
As cited before, this crash has enough earmarks of the Copa crash that I'm just not satisfied.
I just got an E-mail that my speculation that the yaw damper was the culprit in the 737 rudder hard-over cases may have been on target, as suggested by a related series of AD notes. Therefore, this one remains 'open' in my mind.
Reasonable confusion during a maneuvering phase is understandable. However, cruise flight is radically different.
Given the 'politically correct' data distortion of ValuJet 592 - notably the impossible dive - I just don't trust this one. The NTSB is, unfortunately, famous for data distortion as early as the 'Hoot' Gibson 727 tumble.
As cited before, this crash has enough earmarks of the Copa crash that I'm just not satisfied.
I just got an E-mail that my speculation that the yaw damper was the culprit in the 737 rudder hard-over cases may have been on target, as suggested by a related series of AD notes. Therefore, this one remains 'open' in my mind.
Guest
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No doubt about it Casper. The obvious speaks for itself doesn't it.
I wish everybody else would simply get to the guts of the whole issue...namely, what else could cause the supersonic dive at full power? Forget the FDR/CVR/Position of co-pilot/3000fpm excursions/3 degree FPA.....it's all crap at the end of the day.
You just can't put a 737 into a 15,000fpm+ dive at full power with stab trim full down unless somebody does it deliberately...fly the simulator and try it...I have.
I wish everybody else would simply get to the guts of the whole issue...namely, what else could cause the supersonic dive at full power? Forget the FDR/CVR/Position of co-pilot/3000fpm excursions/3 degree FPA.....it's all crap at the end of the day.
You just can't put a 737 into a 15,000fpm+ dive at full power with stab trim full down unless somebody does it deliberately...fly the simulator and try it...I have.
Guest
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I totally agreed with Capt. Erebus
Until now, nobody have challenged or questioned the results coming from the simulator. Simulator results are more convincing than each of our own opinion on the clash is. Everyone can talk what they like, but can they proof whatever they said is correct?
I do not believe a man can kill somebody when he is mentally alright. However, there is always the exception. Look at racial riots in Indonesian, headless body dragged behind motorcycles, teens smiling at camera with his one hand holding a dead man's head.
Also, back here in UK, where a 12 years old kid killed his younger brother because of jealousy
Until now, nobody have challenged or questioned the results coming from the simulator. Simulator results are more convincing than each of our own opinion on the clash is. Everyone can talk what they like, but can they proof whatever they said is correct?
I do not believe a man can kill somebody when he is mentally alright. However, there is always the exception. Look at racial riots in Indonesian, headless body dragged behind motorcycles, teens smiling at camera with his one hand holding a dead man's head.
Also, back here in UK, where a 12 years old kid killed his younger brother because of jealousy
Guest
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I saw the documentary and thought that for "TV" is was quite well done. However, what gets me is the attempt to present as fact what we do not (and probably never will) know. However, at least someone has come out and said in public what a lot of people are only prepared to say in private (or on Pprune). A previous posting from another link referring to the SQ006 crash, but still relevent to this, said "It appears the only people interested in events like this are pilots. Its obvious to me passengers couln't care less about their lives. They are more interested in the inflight service." I take exception to this. The passengers who fly these airlines are not "stupid and suicidal" as the posting said but ill informed. The reason passengers are ill informed is because people aren't prepared to say the truth in public. Despite what many think - not too many passengers read Pprune before making flight bookings. Most pilots on the site seem to feel that venting to each other will make a difference - it will not. As long as pilots continue to attack journalists and anyone else who is interested in their cause - passengers will continue to be "stupid and suicidal".
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Milly
Precisely my point and reason for this posting in the first place..
Why won't any one involved in the investigation from Australia, Indonesia, Singapore, etc come out with all the facts..that apparently are out there..
Sadly, even the British government have officially said they agree with the findings and conclusions of the Indonesian crash report...I have a letter from the relevent government minister advising me of this fact. Then again,what would you expect given the performance of the British Government officials in the Indonesian and Singapore Embassies after the crash with regards the so called support offered to British families effected by the crash.. It was pitiful...
Something is going on...I just do not get it..
Precisely my point and reason for this posting in the first place..
Why won't any one involved in the investigation from Australia, Indonesia, Singapore, etc come out with all the facts..that apparently are out there..
Sadly, even the British government have officially said they agree with the findings and conclusions of the Indonesian crash report...I have a letter from the relevent government minister advising me of this fact. Then again,what would you expect given the performance of the British Government officials in the Indonesian and Singapore Embassies after the crash with regards the so called support offered to British families effected by the crash.. It was pitiful...
Something is going on...I just do not get it..
Guest
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Australia will not officially disagree with the Indonesian findings because it would not be a good move diplomatically. I think there was also some mention on the documentary about Indonesia and Singapore giving Australia free access to accident investigations which involve their nationals. I do not exactly understand this but it would appear that if Australia upsets either Indonesia or Singapore then they will make things difficult for them. The thing to realise is that this investigation has been compromised by politics. It is a sad inditement on our polititians that they care nothing for the safety of their people.
Guest
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Australia may not make comment on the report officially. Only three states (manufacture - USA / operation - Singapore / location - Indonesia) may have official input to the formal report. Australian investigators were present at the invitation of the Indonesian authority.
The NTSB comments on the official report probably created a precedent in that the comments disagreed with the official findings. These official findings are a disgrace to both Indonesia and Singapore, both states purporting to be signatories to ICAO. What a joke!
All investigators in the case (Singapore and Indonesia included) PRIVATELY agree that the crash was caused by human intervention. Apart from all the human factor aspects which are valid DESPITE the rubbish presented by the Singapore police report, there is simply NO OTHER POSSIBLE cause.
As mentioned in previous posts, the trajectory has been flown in simulators. It takes a lot of down trim on the stabiliser and a lot of thrust to achieve the plotted course and descent.
KEEP IT SIMPLE.
Manually set stab trim + manually set thrust = human input.
Claims about yaw damper problems etc are simply not valid in this case. All flight control components of the aircraft in MI 185 was recovered and ALL were okay.
The NTSB comments on the official report probably created a precedent in that the comments disagreed with the official findings. These official findings are a disgrace to both Indonesia and Singapore, both states purporting to be signatories to ICAO. What a joke!
All investigators in the case (Singapore and Indonesia included) PRIVATELY agree that the crash was caused by human intervention. Apart from all the human factor aspects which are valid DESPITE the rubbish presented by the Singapore police report, there is simply NO OTHER POSSIBLE cause.
As mentioned in previous posts, the trajectory has been flown in simulators. It takes a lot of down trim on the stabiliser and a lot of thrust to achieve the plotted course and descent.
KEEP IT SIMPLE.
Manually set stab trim + manually set thrust = human input.
Claims about yaw damper problems etc are simply not valid in this case. All flight control components of the aircraft in MI 185 was recovered and ALL were okay.