Age 70 for international pilots?

[A-3TWENTY]

One proof the old carcass are old fashioned is their total ignorance about Viagra.
If they spent more time searching for new possibilities and or new challenges for their life instead of trying to fly till death they would be much happier.

Again , this is the unique profession where I see people fighting to retire later. Pilots have no idea how stupids they are. I understand that many want to keep flying because they have a lot of pensions to pay , but this just another proof of their stupidity.

Go Fish !!! and leave the airplanes to the younger people !!!It`s up to them now!!!

[hunterboy]

Go Fish !!! and leave the airplanes to the younger people !!!It`s up to them now!!!

Problem is...there is always someone younger than you coming into the industry. Who gets to decide when someone else is going to retire?
At the risk of sounding brutal...life ain't fair...deal with it....or lobby/bribe the politicians to change the law.

[free at last]

Lessons

Lot's to be learned here! The meno-paused FO 's need to relax, other wise they will not make it to 60+. Fly safe.

[Fangio]

lambourne,I retired from flying at 65, during which time I have no recollection of asking the F/O to get me a coffee or a newspaper, which seems to be one of lambourne's gripes. I was interested in their career progression and have watched with interest as their careers have unfolded. Many are still in contact with me. The CRM training in the UK encourages cross checking actions in both directions across the cockpit.
The DH Trident accident report at LHR many years ago is still well worth a read. The crew relationship, regardless of age is paramount to safety. Your attitude to your colleagues lambourne is dreadful, and not condusive to the safety of the aircraft and the passengers. Have you forgotten the first time you went solo, the thrill of flying remains with most pilots into old age, in spite of the obstacles encountered every working day. Remember that you work in one of the most enjoyable professions, enjoy it, stop whingeing. I hope that your attitude will change when you are in the left hand seat.

I thouroughly enjoy retirement, but confess that I still look up with a feeling of pleasure when an aircraft goes overhead, but as they say "Been there, got the T-shirt" and no regrets.

Fangio

[lambourne]

Total crap, 100% wrong! When I got my licence the retirement age was
65, OK? Simple facts seem to elude you. I haven't bothered to read the rest of your post as it is probably all crap too. It has occurred to me that you, lambourne, are just too young to even be discussing this subject?

For this exercise I am speaking of the rules in the United States. There is not one person currently flying to 65 here that was not hired when the Age was 60. So I am not too YOUNG to discuss this subject. You are just too ill informed and unable to notice the location from which I post.

Fangio, not sure how you can make the correlation of not being the Flight Deck steward to the over 60 pilot as being unsafe. However, I do believe CRM is a two way street. Much like the over 60 Captain that sat down at the flight planning table recently. Only looked at the landing fuel and said, "I am adding 20,000#" The three other F/O's looked surprised as we had well over 2+ hours of fuel planned on arrival. Before I could ask the obvious question someone said, "Why?". His CRM Response;"Because I can". OK, thanks for letting us in on the deep secret you have in flight planning Cap'n. The fuel was not necessary it just helps him make up for being inept.

As for speaking to the Old Gompers, I do have exchanges with them. It is usually something like this, "That was for us!", "It is Shannon Control, not Shanwick. Shanwick is the over water portion", "The frequency is 132.250", "That is the SLP, do you want to start slowing?", "line up and wait after means they expect you to take the runway when he departs. you don't get a separate clearance", "He is asking for the registration number and destination"...well you get the picture. I am concerned for the safety of the flight. Just not the comfort of the thief sitting next to me. If you can not see the difference then you may just be too old to understand.

[harryzimm]

Lambourne

Wow, you've got some pent up anger there son.

You are a disgrace to the profession, not to mention the human race.

I suggest you grab a beer and head for the escape chute!

[thegypsy]

I cannot imagine any Captain whether over or under 60 wanting to socialise with F/O Lambourne

[68+iou1]

Lambourne,
I think you may be flying cargo?
If you are? Get out of there! It’s affecting your mental health!

[FoxHunter]

Much like the over 60 Captain that sat down at the flight planning table recently. Only looked at the landing fuel and said, "I am adding 20,000#" The three other F/O's looked surprised as we had well over 2+ hours of fuel planned on arrival. Before I could ask the obvious question someone said, "Why?". His CRM Response;"Because I can".

I think he was trying to tell you that he thought 21,000# would be too much.

I do have exchanges with them. It is usually something like this, "That was for us!", "It is Shannon Control, not Shanwick. Shanwick is the over water portion", "The frequency is 132.250", "That is the SLP, do you want to start slowing?", "line up and wait after means they expect you to take the runway when he departs. you don't get a separate clearance", "He is asking for the registration number and destination"...well you get the picture. I am concerned for the safety of the flight.

Jeez, I'm over age 60 and those are some of the problems I have with F/Os under age 40. I guess I could add having the RFO get the ATIS into CDG and writing it down as 29.82 or the F/O reading back the clearance to FL100 as cleared to ten thousand.

Lambourne, hope you enjoy what is left of your career. Your future looks dim for the long term

[protectthehornet]

Iambourne

if your flights are as you say, you have to report the captain for being inept, or for poor hearing.

and it is not a matter of age. I flew with an FAA examiner (designee) who was 70 and he was one of the best, sharpest pilots I've ever seen.

you may just have crummy pilots at your line, so why don't you report them?????

(I had someone who was four months from retirement (60) and his briefing was: if it seems like I don't care, its because I DON"T CARE...he managed to sit on his microphone, keying it and blocking radio for awhile...I finally figured it out and had to do some fancy flying to make up for his mistake. So, I reported him to the chief pilot, the CP called him in and let him retire ON THE SPOT)

there are old pilots, there are crummy pilots...you are confusing the issue. you have been flying with crummy pilots...just cuz they are old doesn't always make them crummy.

[lambourne]

I think he was trying to tell you that he thought 21,000# would be too much.

Typical....

All this chat about CRM but it seems to be looked at as a one way street. Tired of giving the antiques a pass. Accountability should be in all seats of the cockpit.

My other favorite is the CD arrival into LHR. It is not rocket science and we constantly reminded of lack of compliance. Since the Capt tends to always fly the first leg it seems they are the ones Mucking up the procedure. I get some unique excuses why they can't or won't comply with the procedure.

Speaking of LHR. Call "Xxx with your heading" seems to be something an over 60 mind can't comprehend. Advising the departure sid is also a difficult task, even after it has been briefed before dept!

Great fun flying with these guys! Yes getting older makes you better

[Fangio]

lambourne

lambourne, you are a prime candidate for either a heart attack or a smoking hole in the ground, relax, chill out, enjoy whats left of your flying career.

When I was an F/O, I learned more from the old pilots with years of FLYING experience and not just being a 'machine minder'. Please grow up and if you feel so strongly about a captains performance, report the facts to the chief pilot, you are making yourself look a fool.

Fangio

[sharpshooter41]

Lambourne

I completely agree with you

Fangio

Actually most of the over 60 pilots today, got their command when they were in their late 20's or early 30's. So they have been in the left seat for well over 30 years. Secondly, while some have understood the benefits of CRM, others have not accepted it at all; calling it a stab at their authority.

Now coming to the present day FO. He/she has more hours total/on-type, then what presumeably you had, when you got your command. So here we have some of the over 60 Captains, trying to act all high and mighty, a mister know-all, and not knowing how to deal with the FO who is generally more at ease in this FMS/FMGS environment. This is where the friction comes in.

Additionally, today's FO is well into his 30's and with financial liabilities increasing, was hoping for a move over to the LHS alongwith the pay increase.

With the retirement age increasing from 60 to 65, his dreams of the LHS will remain just that, for the time being atleast.

It is sooo easy to say that as long as he/she passes the medical/ simulator he/she should be able to fly. Please speak from the heart and say that you find nothing wrong with this.

Take care

[protectthehornet]

sharpshooter...when I joined my airline, they promised me (and my peers) upgrade in five years....it took eleven (oh yeah, we had a couple of wars and terror attacks that threw a monkey wrency (adjustable spanner) into the works).

I made captain at 42.

if you want to advance faster...it might not happen...so try to learn something...you might be an old fart yourself sometime.

[batsky2000]

I think that the real point that is missed is that I don't care if a 70 year old passes his PC, we all know that the people at Flight Safety and Simuflight give lots of space when you screw up and sometimes just forget about it, so from what I have seen over the years, unless you really screw up, they will pass you. And I also don't care if they pass a medical. The real problem that is overlooked and I have seen it many times with some of the older over 65 year olds that I have flown with at my company is that their COGNITIVE Reasoning and thinking abilities are very weak. It takes them much longer to figure things out. In my last PC, I felt like I had to coach my partner who had twice as many hours as I did, sure he can fly the airplane, and sure he can pass his medical, but when faced with an emergency, the deer in the headlights look is the image I saw. All I can say is that it does not matter that they have 20+ years of experience and 20,000+ hours of flight time, there cognitive skills diminished over time, as will mine and yours. I for one would not want to be in a plane with two 70 year olds at the helm.....

[protectthehornet]

batsky

I had a guy with me who was 17 years younger than me...air force trained...and he had the deer in the headlights look in the sim...we were''on fire'' and had to make an emergency ILS...he didn't even follow the needles, so I had to take it from him ( in the sim).

it is not always an age thing.

[stepwilk]

It's really pointless for everybody to be telling stories--or, worse yet, passing on hearsay accounts--of this former young USAF Iraq ace unable to make an engine-out approach, or of that ancient mariner rescuing his 40-year-old F/O from a total screw-up.

It's all pointless story-telling. But there must be scientific evidence of cognitive decay--or of the lack thereof--in 70-year-olds. Anybody who can point to that has my attention. Otherwise it's just I-remember-the-time war-story telling. Sound and fury signifying nothing.

[toooldtodieyoung]

Remember my friend some day, god willing, YOU will be that old fart...

[RetiredF4]

Is it age or is it performance we should look for?

Let me first state, that the way "lambourne" is performing in this thread is way below anything, i´ve expierienced in my lifetime. It is far away from any intellectual form of discussion with lots of personal agitation against older people, very similar to racism in its worst way.

I would not let my loved ones fly with such a person and i´m sure, there will be paybacktime some deay for such behavior in this world or the next one.

It is even worse, that due to this behavior the discussion lacks the necessary participation of knowledgable people (congrats to those who have not been offended off till now) to discuss the necessary points in regards to safe flying.

Let me also state, that i see no necessity in increasing the age limit to 70 (there are enough pilots out there who should be able to do the job), and it might get a safety issue due to degrading capabilities of body and brain.

It is out of question, that physical abilities degrade with increasing age. Therefore military pilots are phased out of active flying duty long before the age of 60. In my carreer i had to take checkrides (instruments and tactical) with young and unexpierienced pilots, with expierienced pilots and with old and expierienced pilots. The oldest one was 58 with lots of hours and lots of expierience, but his performance got worse from year to year. And i had a hard time to get his ear concerning his lacking decision- and handling abilities caused by bad eyesight and slower reaction time.

That is most probably not that much different to civilian aviation, the body and brain gets old regardless who is handing out the paycheck. In a functioning CRM environment there is probably lots of room to equalize such unwanted aging effects (tradeoff of expierience) up to a critical point, when it gets a safety issue.

The question being, who in aviation is defining that point? The standard medical? I don´t think so, as long as it is not focused on special items. And as long as you can choose your own familiar doctor, there is even missing some objectivity. A flight physical examination and training (like we had to do on a regular basis) could do it, but there is none, at least i dont know of one. Your employer kicking you out on hearsaying from the FO´s? The lawyers and courts will have high time and lots of money would be spent in fighting those layoffs. Busting Check-Sims? Come on, with year-long expierience it is easy to do those sims, and it is not the real world and no people behind your seat, you prepared for it, you slept well before and read some books. With luck your checker is well known to you. You could even arrange a simride before the actual checkride. The old pilot itself? Some sure will know their limits, but some will not for the obvious reasons (money, love of flying, ....you name it).

So at my present age of 57 i neither enjoy flying as a passenger with the young FO, who is paying his line training at the moment nor seing the captain of the flight some considerable years older than myself, regardless of his expierience.

I think this discussion should focus more to the question, wether there can be procedures installed to ensure, that pilots regardless of their age meet all necessary safety-standards not only for flying from A to B, but also being able to bring the people back when those few minutes of horror interrupt the long hours of boredom. And when the sh*t hits the fan, CRM might bring you nada and the left or right "seater" might have to handle such a situation on his own.

If those procedures are developed, installed and respected, we dont need to talk about an age limit any more.

And "lambourne" would probably not be eligable to flying passengers around the world with such an attitude.

franzl

[ManaAdaSystem]

It's OK to fly past 60, but not OK to put two over 60's in the same cockpit.

Why?