Age 70 for international pilots?
Are you happy to raise the age to 90? - 100?
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Westhawk,
I am not fixated on age, I am happy to retire at or before I reach the current limit.It is those who wish to raise the limit that have the problem, and the young guys trying to forge a career.
I am not fixated on age, I am happy to retire at or before I reach the current limit.It is those who wish to raise the limit that have the problem, and the young guys trying to forge a career.
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Captain aged 62
Air India Express Crash Averted in Mangalore
More people could have lost their lives in June, in a replay of the events that led to India’s worst air crash in a decade in Mangalore last year that killed 158 people.
On 25 June, an Air India Express flight (IX-208) from Mumbai landed deep into the table-top runway located on a mountain in Mangalore.
The captain decided to take off and land again after circling the airport, but the co-pilot overruled him in the nick of time and applied the brakes, bringing the aircraft to a stop at the edge of the runway. A 300-ft gorge stared below.
“It was actually a miracle that they survived,” said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and a member of the government-appointed Civil Aviation Safety Advisory Council. “If the runway was even slightly wet there was no way they could have stopped before the runway ended. But if they had tried to take off they would have certainly ended up like the last Mangalore crash.”
The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) is investigating the incident, said two government officials familiar with the matter, declining to be identified.
Air India Express, the low-fare arm of Air India Ltd, continues to run without a qualified chief of flight safety even a year and four months after the ill-fated crash in Mangalore.
Incidents such as the ones described earlier are increasing.
One of the government officials mentioned above said the landing of the IX-208 flight was of a magnitude of 2.9 G (acceleration due to gravity).
The maximum allowed for a Boeing 737 aircraft, like the one Air India Express was flying, is 2.1 G.
A 2.9 G magnitude means landing an aircraft weighing 70 tonnes would be like landing an aircraft of 200 tonnes. The impact could have broken the belly of the aircraft.
An Iberia A 340-600 made a similarly hard landing of 3 G magnitude in 2007 in Quito, Ecuador. Its landing gear sensors got damaged, and that prevented normal deceleration of the aircraft due to the failure of thrust reversers and spoilers. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair.
The Air India Express IX-208 was operated by commander Saravjit Singh Hothi, 62, and co-pilot Manish Chimurkar, 34.
Air India Express chief operating officer S. Chandrakumar confirmed the incident.
“After the Mangalore crash, the standard of co-pilot training has been improved; so the co-pilot (Chimurkar) was more aggressive in taking over control of the situation,” he said. “Hothi has been grounded.”
In the Air India Express flight that crashed in May 2010, the co-pilot could not overrule the commander’s decision to land. The co-pilot had wanted to go around and land again, according to investigation reports. The flight overshot the runway and crashed.
Ranganathan said Air India Express has not learnt lessons from the Mangalore crash and the latest incident shows poor training standards.
The incident was not the only one in recent months. On 28 August, another Air India Express flight that took off from Kochi suffered a tail strike because its commander R. Sobti chose a speed suitable for an aircraft 20,000 kg lighter than the one he was flying.
In a tail strike, the rear end of the aircraft hits the ground druing take-off.
“Instead of take-off weight he used zero-fuel weight to calculate take-off speed,” said the first government official mentioned earlier. “Worryingly, the investigation shows that the ex-Indian Air Force pilot had a tendency to have a tail strike. Why did Air India Express ignore this?”
Sobti, too, has been grounded, Chandrakumar said.
Till an audit is done, DGCA should ground Air India Express and let Air India run those flights, said Ranganathan and the second government official.
Air India is certified by International Air Transport Association’s IATA Operational Safety Audit (IOSA), the global benchmark for airline safety; but Air India Express, despite committing to go through an IOSA audit last year after the Mangalore crash, hasn’t done so.
The aviation regulator has, meanwhile, started a base inspection of the airline.
“The situation is so bad at the airline that you can’t imagine,” said the second government official.
Air India Express crash averted in Mangalore - Home - livemint.com
More people could have lost their lives in June, in a replay of the events that led to India’s worst air crash in a decade in Mangalore last year that killed 158 people.
On 25 June, an Air India Express flight (IX-208) from Mumbai landed deep into the table-top runway located on a mountain in Mangalore.
The captain decided to take off and land again after circling the airport, but the co-pilot overruled him in the nick of time and applied the brakes, bringing the aircraft to a stop at the edge of the runway. A 300-ft gorge stared below.
“It was actually a miracle that they survived,” said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and a member of the government-appointed Civil Aviation Safety Advisory Council. “If the runway was even slightly wet there was no way they could have stopped before the runway ended. But if they had tried to take off they would have certainly ended up like the last Mangalore crash.”
The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) is investigating the incident, said two government officials familiar with the matter, declining to be identified.
Air India Express, the low-fare arm of Air India Ltd, continues to run without a qualified chief of flight safety even a year and four months after the ill-fated crash in Mangalore.
Incidents such as the ones described earlier are increasing.
One of the government officials mentioned above said the landing of the IX-208 flight was of a magnitude of 2.9 G (acceleration due to gravity).
The maximum allowed for a Boeing 737 aircraft, like the one Air India Express was flying, is 2.1 G.
A 2.9 G magnitude means landing an aircraft weighing 70 tonnes would be like landing an aircraft of 200 tonnes. The impact could have broken the belly of the aircraft.
An Iberia A 340-600 made a similarly hard landing of 3 G magnitude in 2007 in Quito, Ecuador. Its landing gear sensors got damaged, and that prevented normal deceleration of the aircraft due to the failure of thrust reversers and spoilers. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair.
The Air India Express IX-208 was operated by commander Saravjit Singh Hothi, 62, and co-pilot Manish Chimurkar, 34.
Air India Express chief operating officer S. Chandrakumar confirmed the incident.
“After the Mangalore crash, the standard of co-pilot training has been improved; so the co-pilot (Chimurkar) was more aggressive in taking over control of the situation,” he said. “Hothi has been grounded.”
In the Air India Express flight that crashed in May 2010, the co-pilot could not overrule the commander’s decision to land. The co-pilot had wanted to go around and land again, according to investigation reports. The flight overshot the runway and crashed.
Ranganathan said Air India Express has not learnt lessons from the Mangalore crash and the latest incident shows poor training standards.
The incident was not the only one in recent months. On 28 August, another Air India Express flight that took off from Kochi suffered a tail strike because its commander R. Sobti chose a speed suitable for an aircraft 20,000 kg lighter than the one he was flying.
In a tail strike, the rear end of the aircraft hits the ground druing take-off.
“Instead of take-off weight he used zero-fuel weight to calculate take-off speed,” said the first government official mentioned earlier. “Worryingly, the investigation shows that the ex-Indian Air Force pilot had a tendency to have a tail strike. Why did Air India Express ignore this?”
Sobti, too, has been grounded, Chandrakumar said.
Till an audit is done, DGCA should ground Air India Express and let Air India run those flights, said Ranganathan and the second government official.
Air India is certified by International Air Transport Association’s IATA Operational Safety Audit (IOSA), the global benchmark for airline safety; but Air India Express, despite committing to go through an IOSA audit last year after the Mangalore crash, hasn’t done so.
The aviation regulator has, meanwhile, started a base inspection of the airline.
“The situation is so bad at the airline that you can’t imagine,” said the second government official.
Air India Express crash averted in Mangalore - Home - livemint.com
Originally Posted by Tankengine
and the young guys trying to forge a career.
I do.I don't have any investment in the debate at all. No seniority number so no axe to grind. I just get a little tired of seeing the age competency/health argument used to support getting the old guys out to make room for the new. I believe it to be poor form to argue for one's own benefit using such tactics. It smacks of American politics!
If you wanted to boot guys out on a more objective basis like real time competency and cognition testing, you might have something. Then again, such objective measures might not eliminate the "right" people, so beware of what you wish for!
Anyway, good luck with your career. Go forth and sin no more.
Join Date: May 2001
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If there was any sort of test then that would be good!
There is not, so a limit stops EVERYONE [bar the unlucky, unfit young]
If you knew my situation re seniority etc you would see it makes little difference for me too!
It smacks of hypocritcy to want to change the age on no other fact than
" I want to keep flying even though I knew for x years there was an age limit"
There is not, so a limit stops EVERYONE [bar the unlucky, unfit young]
If you knew my situation re seniority etc you would see it makes little difference for me too!
It smacks of hypocritcy to want to change the age on no other fact than
" I want to keep flying even though I knew for x years there was an age limit"
the scientists in the back and the pilot management group don't agree with you
Just another little point: It was thanks to the union engendered rules in the USA and France that I had to go back to the RHS at age 60. Thanks a heap!
p.s. For the FOs watching: It was pretty similar to the first time round - some capts were great to fly with but a few were a PITA. Still better than a ground job
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I think (as an old guy) most of the reasons given for tossing us old guys out of an airliner flight deck are nothing more than excuses.
At 60, from one day to the next, there was no sound reason or basis for pushing me sideways.
Full stop.
How many decades have we as a group had to sort this out?
At 60, from one day to the next, there was no sound reason or basis for pushing me sideways.
Full stop.
How many decades have we as a group had to sort this out?
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Nice one, Willie. This way of thinking will never put an end to your flying.
It is not one major issue that should stop you flying, if it comes to that you have been flying for too long. It is the slow way you body lets go over time, that is the issue.
There must be a line somewhere, before you kill somebody because of old age.
The medical checks are not designed to check for loss of memory, nodding off, slow reaction, poor eyesight in darkness, dementia, etc.
Eyes (in a well lit room), ears, ticker, blood and urine. That is pretty much it.
It is not one major issue that should stop you flying, if it comes to that you have been flying for too long. It is the slow way you body lets go over time, that is the issue.
There must be a line somewhere, before you kill somebody because of old age.
The medical checks are not designed to check for loss of memory, nodding off, slow reaction, poor eyesight in darkness, dementia, etc.
Eyes (in a well lit room), ears, ticker, blood and urine. That is pretty much it.
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We're expressing opinions here. That's all.
Who knows if I'm right or wrong? I'm not a medical expert but I've crossed several decades and can compare how I am today with how I was at 35.
I agree, the changes come slowly and subtly. But those changes, whatever they may be should be dealt with as they rear their ugly heads.
Just as the 30 something who has a mild heart attack or the 46 year old jogger who died of a massive heart attack.
"It is the slow way your body lets go over time, that is the issue."
Not entirely. It's the mental capacity that may slide over time and that occurs at differing points in our lives. Mine different to yours and not automatically at age 60. If this industry and industry pilot unions were really interested in mental capacities it would have a means or method of checking it. I consider my six month check rides to be the arena for discovery. Revealing my onset of incapacity, incompetence or dementia, etc. If it isn't then it should be.
If we were flying in one man high speed combat cockpits, I'd already be sipping my whisky and watching footy as the aeroplanes climb away on departure. I've never flown those aircraft, only lumbering airliners and fairly docile turbo props.
Most of us don't fly fast jets. We mostly fly two man aeroplanes with lots of safety measures built in which include reliable SOPs and appropriate levels of automation. You might have encountered subtle incapacitation drills in your training over the years. Insight, maybe?
At my present age, in my present state of proficiency and mental capacity, I believe myself along with thousands of others over the age of 60 at a time when pilot shortages are starting to bite like they've never bitten before, would make a competent F/O or Relief Captain for at least the next five years. After that, I really would like to sit on my boat, sip whisky and watch the world go by.
I may convince no one in the end, it's only my opinion and from one day to the next I am no less able based on such an arbitrary number.
It's age-based discrimination. Nothing more and nothing less.
Who knows if I'm right or wrong? I'm not a medical expert but I've crossed several decades and can compare how I am today with how I was at 35.
I agree, the changes come slowly and subtly. But those changes, whatever they may be should be dealt with as they rear their ugly heads.
Just as the 30 something who has a mild heart attack or the 46 year old jogger who died of a massive heart attack.
"It is the slow way your body lets go over time, that is the issue."
Not entirely. It's the mental capacity that may slide over time and that occurs at differing points in our lives. Mine different to yours and not automatically at age 60. If this industry and industry pilot unions were really interested in mental capacities it would have a means or method of checking it. I consider my six month check rides to be the arena for discovery. Revealing my onset of incapacity, incompetence or dementia, etc. If it isn't then it should be.
If we were flying in one man high speed combat cockpits, I'd already be sipping my whisky and watching footy as the aeroplanes climb away on departure. I've never flown those aircraft, only lumbering airliners and fairly docile turbo props.
Most of us don't fly fast jets. We mostly fly two man aeroplanes with lots of safety measures built in which include reliable SOPs and appropriate levels of automation. You might have encountered subtle incapacitation drills in your training over the years. Insight, maybe?
At my present age, in my present state of proficiency and mental capacity, I believe myself along with thousands of others over the age of 60 at a time when pilot shortages are starting to bite like they've never bitten before, would make a competent F/O or Relief Captain for at least the next five years. After that, I really would like to sit on my boat, sip whisky and watch the world go by.
I may convince no one in the end, it's only my opinion and from one day to the next I am no less able based on such an arbitrary number.
It's age-based discrimination. Nothing more and nothing less.
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 17th Sep 2011 at 19:35.
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Get in a different line of work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My old body and mind are way better than having a 400 hr F/O flying with some 45-55 year old stress out pecker-wood who has died in the seat because he was wound too tight!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My old body and mind are way better than having a 400 hr F/O flying with some 45-55 year old stress out pecker-wood who has died in the seat because he was wound too tight!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by SkyDivPilot; 21st Oct 2011 at 01:44.
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This trend is one that we're all going to have to get used to... whether we want to or not it's a new dawn. The whole idea of 'retirement' is a 20th century failed experiment. Before then nobody retired. One had to work or starve and the socialist thinking that promised comfortable retirement after 40 years of contributing to a pension fund just didn't work... and private pension funds have served no better. Pilots are no different to anyone else and will need to work to eat... and pay alimony.
Tough on the young ? Yes... but in the words of Cliff Richard.. "We may not be the Young Ones Very Long"... You're all on the same train, just a few carriages back... beware of what you wish for because before you know it, you too will be desperate to cling on to that left hand seat out of necessity if not out of preference.
Tough on the young ? Yes... but in the words of Cliff Richard.. "We may not be the Young Ones Very Long"... You're all on the same train, just a few carriages back... beware of what you wish for because before you know it, you too will be desperate to cling on to that left hand seat out of necessity if not out of preference.
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There is no doubt this is a lost cause. First, I am off the big jets and glad of it. I still fly small airplanes. I have lots of flight time and most of it in heavy jets. I agree that age is not a determination, of itself, in skills and ability to use those skills but...
I have seen lots of guys deteriorate as they grew older but they either were not aware of it or didn't care. My family had to intervene to get my father to stop flying. He was a bright guy and a good pilot - once.
In the past, the age 60 was a filter that took everyone out even if you still were (or thought you were) Skyler King. Unfair to some. But it did get the guys out before they started to be a problem. Which brings me to my point.
Most of the stuff on airplanes is time limited. We don't wait for generators or pumps to fail. We replace it at a defined time point. Even the airplane itself has to have a C check eventually. We don't wait for stuff to fail in aviation before replacement. Well, in the past we didn't. I guess now it's OK to do that with the guy in the left seat.
I know - in the past it was heresy to suggest a great airline might screw a Captain (with 2 wives on "maintenance" and another on the patio, a mortgaged motor home, summer house, and primary residence, 2 kids in college, and a failed Christmas tree farm) out of his earned retirement. Times change I guess.
Lovely picture. The aging old guy hoping no one finds out about his medical condition and a 300 hour wunderkind in the right seat hoping the autopilot doesn't quit and terrified the old fart will make him fly the visual approach.
I have seen lots of guys deteriorate as they grew older but they either were not aware of it or didn't care. My family had to intervene to get my father to stop flying. He was a bright guy and a good pilot - once.
In the past, the age 60 was a filter that took everyone out even if you still were (or thought you were) Skyler King. Unfair to some. But it did get the guys out before they started to be a problem. Which brings me to my point.
Most of the stuff on airplanes is time limited. We don't wait for generators or pumps to fail. We replace it at a defined time point. Even the airplane itself has to have a C check eventually. We don't wait for stuff to fail in aviation before replacement. Well, in the past we didn't. I guess now it's OK to do that with the guy in the left seat.
I know - in the past it was heresy to suggest a great airline might screw a Captain (with 2 wives on "maintenance" and another on the patio, a mortgaged motor home, summer house, and primary residence, 2 kids in college, and a failed Christmas tree farm) out of his earned retirement. Times change I guess.
Lovely picture. The aging old guy hoping no one finds out about his medical condition and a 300 hour wunderkind in the right seat hoping the autopilot doesn't quit and terrified the old fart will make him fly the visual approach.
Last edited by Plectron; 22nd Oct 2011 at 12:43. Reason: spelling
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300 hour wunderkind in the right seat hoping the autopilot doesn't quit and terrified the old fart will make him fly the visual approach.
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All our governments are broke. People we are going to have to suck it up and fly an extra five years to give the politicians more of our money to get them out the hole they dug for themselves.
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If you have worked your whole life in aviation and haven't made the good command decisions required to control the fate of your own retirement by age 63; you don't belong at the controls of an airliner and probably never did.
There's a reason no professional athlete is working at that age, not even in golf.
It's because it's time to hang it up!!
There's a reason no professional athlete is working at that age, not even in golf.
It's because it's time to hang it up!!
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mana ada system
hm...sounds like you never did a proffesional pilot medical check
kangaroo court !
...since when golfers have been athlets ? .....or even better question: "Since when pilots were considered to be kind of athlets ? "
The medical checks are not designed to check for loss of memory, nodding off, slow reaction, poor eyesight in darkness, dementia, etc.
Eyes (in a well lit room), ears, ticker, blood and urine. That is pretty much it.
Eyes (in a well lit room), ears, ticker, blood and urine. That is pretty much it.
kangaroo court !
There's a reason no professional athlete is working at that age, not even in golf.
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If you have worked your whole life in aviation and haven't made the good command decisions required to control the fate of your own retirement by age 63; you don't belong at the controls of an airliner and probably never did.