Age 70 for international pilots?
How did we ever manage to survive and develop and progress long enough for Quesada to arbitrarily invent and impose the age 60 limit? How many crashed and burned because there was no age 60 rule? Was it ever necessary or just somebody's power trip?
The whole story is now quite well known. It was Pete, as the very first FAA Administrator, doing a favour for his old mate, who was President of American Airlines, who had an industrial problem.
When Pete's term was up, he joined the Board if Directors of AA.
There never was any study to justify the "age 60 rule", later adopted by ICAO, and the rest, as "they" say, is history.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The oldest person I know still earing a living flying, as a "check airman" in US terms, will be 86 this year.
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With all due respect Stepwilk...
there's a big difference between writing an article on a computer in the comfort of your living room and being in command of a heavy high speed jet aircraft with 200+bods in the back when you're sitting over the Atlantic ocean at 39,000 ft at night!
there's a big difference between writing an article on a computer in the comfort of your living room and being in command of a heavy high speed jet aircraft with 200+bods in the back when you're sitting over the Atlantic ocean at 39,000 ft at night!
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Today, in an average industrialized country, men can expect to live until they are 75 and women until they are 80. A hundred years ago those numbers were 50 and 55. Today around 13% of the population does not live beyond 60, a hundred years ago it was 63%.
So in the span of 100 years life expectancy has increased 50% and there is no reason to expect this trend not to continue, perhaps not at the same pace, but with continued improvements in living and working conditions, health care and nutrition people will continue to live longer. But, while people will live longer it does not necessarily follow that people will stay fit and healthy for longer.
Generally as societies get richer, life expectancy goes up while birth rates goes down. This causes a shift in demographics towards an ageing population and eventually a declining population. Keeping the current retirement ages will mean more people will need to be supported and for longer with fewer people to do it.
Raising the retirement age is inevitable
So in the span of 100 years life expectancy has increased 50% and there is no reason to expect this trend not to continue, perhaps not at the same pace, but with continued improvements in living and working conditions, health care and nutrition people will continue to live longer. But, while people will live longer it does not necessarily follow that people will stay fit and healthy for longer.
Generally as societies get richer, life expectancy goes up while birth rates goes down. This causes a shift in demographics towards an ageing population and eventually a declining population. Keeping the current retirement ages will mean more people will need to be supported and for longer with fewer people to do it.
Raising the retirement age is inevitable
Around 1950, people entered the workforce at 16-18 and shuffled off this mortal coil typically at around 70.
In 2010, people enter the workforce at 21-24, and shuffle off typically at about 85.
The medical profession has also come along an enormous way in its ability to tell you what's wrong with you (or not).
We all need somehow to have our retirements paid for out of some income, from somewhere.
Any way you look at it, retiring people at 60 or 65 makes absolutely no sense any more. It's an anachronism.
Personally, sat here in my 40s, I don't anticipate retiring this side of 70, but nor do I hope in the 21st century to die this side of 90. So I'll probably still have a longer retirement than my WW2-era grandad did, who retired about 65 and was dead by 70.
That said, make the ambitious co-pilots happy by replacing promotion through seniority by promotion through examined ability, and perhaps everybody gets what they want (or the old chaps will be proved right about the abilities of the young chaps...)
G
In 2010, people enter the workforce at 21-24, and shuffle off typically at about 85.
The medical profession has also come along an enormous way in its ability to tell you what's wrong with you (or not).
We all need somehow to have our retirements paid for out of some income, from somewhere.
Any way you look at it, retiring people at 60 or 65 makes absolutely no sense any more. It's an anachronism.
Personally, sat here in my 40s, I don't anticipate retiring this side of 70, but nor do I hope in the 21st century to die this side of 90. So I'll probably still have a longer retirement than my WW2-era grandad did, who retired about 65 and was dead by 70.
That said, make the ambitious co-pilots happy by replacing promotion through seniority by promotion through examined ability, and perhaps everybody gets what they want (or the old chaps will be proved right about the abilities of the young chaps...)
G
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@cirr
Perhaps your medical source for this fact would be appropriate.
—Please include comparison stats with age 40± smokers who sit for long hours.
—Please give us your best guess as to the meaning of "exponentially".
Just because you have readers seeking to learn from your wisdom. Thanks.
your chances of a sudden heart attack or a stroke rise exponentially with age
—Please include comparison stats with age 40± smokers who sit for long hours.
—Please give us your best guess as to the meaning of "exponentially".
Just because you have readers seeking to learn from your wisdom. Thanks.
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Times certainly have changed... To add to LeadSled's comment, here is the actual US rule change issued December 1, 1959 and effective March 15, 1960:
Civil Air Regulations Amendment 41-29 - Maximum Age Limitations For Pilots
More recently, here are links to the studies conducted by the FAA Civil Aerospace Medical Institute related to the "Age 60 Rule":
94/20 Age 60 Rule Research, Part I: Bibliographic Database - A
94/20 Age 60 Rule Research, Part I: Bibliographic Database - B
94/20 Age 60 Rule Research, Part I: Bibliographic Database - C
94/21 Age 60 Rule Research, Part II: Airline Pilot Age and Performance A Review of the Scientific Literature
94/22 Age 60 Rule Research, Part III: Consolidated Database Experiments Final Report
94/23 Age 60 Rule Research, Part IV: Experimental Evaluation of Pilot Performance
04/8 Methodological Issues in the Study of Airplane Accident Rates by Pilot Age: Effects of Accident and Pilot Inclusion Criteria and Analytic Strategy
Civil Air Regulations Amendment 41-29 - Maximum Age Limitations For Pilots
More recently, here are links to the studies conducted by the FAA Civil Aerospace Medical Institute related to the "Age 60 Rule":
94/20 Age 60 Rule Research, Part I: Bibliographic Database - A
94/20 Age 60 Rule Research, Part I: Bibliographic Database - B
94/20 Age 60 Rule Research, Part I: Bibliographic Database - C
94/21 Age 60 Rule Research, Part II: Airline Pilot Age and Performance A Review of the Scientific Literature
94/22 Age 60 Rule Research, Part III: Consolidated Database Experiments Final Report
94/23 Age 60 Rule Research, Part IV: Experimental Evaluation of Pilot Performance
04/8 Methodological Issues in the Study of Airplane Accident Rates by Pilot Age: Effects of Accident and Pilot Inclusion Criteria and Analytic Strategy
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Probably there are some pilots able to fly with 70 or more.
But ask any airline instructor what they think about it...you'll see that they notice a very big breakdown in perfomance when we approach 60 years old. It's life, we get old, our brain and body doesnt give the same feedback it used to give when we were 20 years old. If I at 29 already feel it, I can only imagine at 60.
If the age is going to be 70, I dare the doctors to pass your medicals according to what is in the law. And the check captains to do the same as well. Because unfortunately the respect the old captains get(well desirved in my opinion), makes that doctors and check captains approve them just because they are close to retirenent age, closing the eyes to same medical problems or not so good sim checks.
Lets not get ourselves killed and lets live a good life, with time to enjoy our family or some other things we never had the time to do when we retire.
But ask any airline instructor what they think about it...you'll see that they notice a very big breakdown in perfomance when we approach 60 years old. It's life, we get old, our brain and body doesnt give the same feedback it used to give when we were 20 years old. If I at 29 already feel it, I can only imagine at 60.
If the age is going to be 70, I dare the doctors to pass your medicals according to what is in the law. And the check captains to do the same as well. Because unfortunately the respect the old captains get(well desirved in my opinion), makes that doctors and check captains approve them just because they are close to retirenent age, closing the eyes to same medical problems or not so good sim checks.
Lets not get ourselves killed and lets live a good life, with time to enjoy our family or some other things we never had the time to do when we retire.
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A few years back, at Wycombe Air Park - not very far from LHR airspace, everything on the aerodrome came to a stop......a strange ghost from the past appeared and flew very very quickly indeed, wheels up, beating up 27 in time honoured fashion! It then climbed to circuit height, performed an impeccable circuit and landing. A deHaviland MKVI Mosquito fighter/bomber, no less, one of the most efficient of all WWII designs, and constructed mainly from plywood in what used to be furniture factories......
It taxied round to the apron, came to a halt, shut down. We were all in awe, waiting for those daring airmen to emerge. A hatch opened forward, a set of steps reached down to the ground......and all these OLD MEN CLIMBED OUT!
Of course, when they first started flying that particular type, they were a bit younger....
It taxied round to the apron, came to a halt, shut down. We were all in awe, waiting for those daring airmen to emerge. A hatch opened forward, a set of steps reached down to the ground......and all these OLD MEN CLIMBED OUT!
Of course, when they first started flying that particular type, they were a bit younger....
The Original Whirly
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I have a very simple question...
Why do we actually need a mandatory retirement age, in aviation or anything else?
Answers on a postcard please, in words of one syllable, for a still flying/writing/earning 60+ who's quite obviously ga-ga.
Why do we actually need a mandatory retirement age, in aviation or anything else?
Answers on a postcard please, in words of one syllable, for a still flying/writing/earning 60+ who's quite obviously ga-ga.
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Beires, That was a great post! Enjoy retirement and live a little, sadly, what I have observed is there are many pilots are approaching their senior years with no retirement skills.
Gengis,
All well and good to go by ability, but then we have to do the same with the Capt's, they perform to the highest standard or be downgraded. Think that will work?
Gengis,
All well and good to go by ability, but then we have to do the same with the Capt's, they perform to the highest standard or be downgraded. Think that will work?
No problem. Just put them on the bottom of the seniority list so they can see what they've made it like for everyone else.
Hell, I'm only 55, and I'm over it already.
Hell, I'm only 55, and I'm over it already.
In Australia we are able to continue past 65 as someone fought and won an age discrimination case against the old "age 60 rule", as many previous posters have said, some are good at 80 & some are stuffed at 50!! I myself am approaching 62 and so far have no problems medically & operationally. As I am a contract pilot I have to do 2 medicals at home and 2 overseas (JAA), my Australian one involves a stress ECG annually, these results are assessed by The CASA Medical Dept. so there is no way I can fool the system, my overseas medicals are carried out in a major hospital and once again I have no way in modifying any problem areas, my recurrent SIM checks are carried out by a third party operator, a respected British Airline, once again I am assessed impartially......I do take some offence that some posters imply that it is an "old boys club" that lets people like myself continue flying...nuff said!!
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Zlin77: that's your case and that's the way it should be done. And if that's the way it's done for everyone I dont have a problem with a no age limit.
I know some cases that they fool the system....and that's the reason I think it Will be unsafe to abolish the age limit.
But I know and did check rides with perfectly capable 60 year old captains. Where I can see them as a example to follow and try to be alike. But the world is far from perfect......
I know some cases that they fool the system....and that's the reason I think it Will be unsafe to abolish the age limit.
But I know and did check rides with perfectly capable 60 year old captains. Where I can see them as a example to follow and try to be alike. But the world is far from perfect......