Age 70 for international pilots?
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ZZZZZZZ
What was that you said Uhh...ZZZZZZZ!! Come on guys if, the person (he or she) passes medicalīs and SIMīs then, whatīs the problem? Are we discriminating here...
sorry not allowed. Pension plans going haywire...maybe?. Young pilotīs also get through their SIMīs and pass medicalīs. And I imagine some are not all that they make out to be! In all fairness, who is going to put an age limit on our profession when, all the above is taken into account. Itīs very nice to work for a company 25 years and retire with a good pension, yes. But, others, have not been so lucky and have been left without a pension. They might need to work in what they are trained to do, shall we deny them that right?
What was that you said Uhh...ZZZZZZZ!! Come on guys if, the person (he or she) passes medicalīs and SIMīs then, whatīs the problem? Are we discriminating here... sorry not allowed. Pension plans going haywire...maybe?. Young pilotīs also get through their SIMīs and pass medicalīs. And I imagine some are not all that they make out to be! In all fairness, who is going to put an age limit on our profession when, all the above is taken into account. Itīs very nice to work for a company 25 years and retire with a good pension, yes. But, others, have not been so lucky and have been left without a pension. They might need to work in what they are trained to do, shall we deny them that right?
As I sat down in his office, he was very enjoyable and friendly and said it was great to see me again. He asked how my wife and kids were that they must be getting big since last visit, how my Dad was, as well as a few other friendly questions. The problem was that I'd never saw this Doctor before in my life
I think that experience should cover the foolish cries that oldsters are not a health risk if they pass a Physical.
Second highlight: Who is going to put an age limit? Anyone with half a brain and a rudimentry sense of responsibility. The effects of aging are real and very clear. The existing tests are not adequate to catch them unless they become chronic and severe. It is true that younger aviators do have problems and do slip by in the Sims. They of course may get extra scrutiny, and may have to perform correctly or get "tossed out on their ears" as 411A is fond of saying. They still have a chance to get better. An pilot sliding with the symptoms of aging will not.
Third highlight. You voice concern that many are without pensions and may need to work. This argument is as asinine as the argument that oldsters should retire just for the younger guys. Both assertions are ridiculous and shouldn't be used by either side. Although it hurts me personally, I feel it shouldn't be part of the debate.
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green guard
good for you! I hate it when people don't add the type of units, ie: degrees, miles, etc.
The best pilot I've ever flown with was a designated examiner for the FAA and he was 70 years old (at the time). He use to teach in B17's at Minden, Nevada or other similiar bases.
There is something to be said for age...Who would you rather be with? Raquel Welch, or Paris Hilton?
The best pilot I've ever flown with was a designated examiner for the FAA and he was 70 years old (at the time). He use to teach in B17's at Minden, Nevada or other similiar bases.
There is something to be said for age...Who would you rather be with? Raquel Welch, or Paris Hilton?
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Yes, in several countries, among them are...
Honduras
Bolivia
Argentina
Male
Benin
Syria
Jordan
Mauritania
Honduras
Bolivia
Argentina
Male
Benin
Syria
Jordan
Mauritania
This is the list of countries you fondly look at for how to operate in todays world of aviation? Are they far reaching thinkers of progressive thought or are the goverments involved just trying to keep their relatives gainfully employed? My guess is the latter.
It's amazing that anyone with half a brain would entertain themselves by seeking guidance from your list of countries on how to live ones life let alone run an airline.
It's some of the better comedy you've ever posted 411A
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The best pilot I've ever flown with was a designated examiner for the FAA and he was 70 years old (at the time). He use to teach in B17's at Minden, Nevada or other similiar bases.
Most of us on both sides of the issue can point to certain pilots who are as sharp as they were in their 20's and far better with their experience. Abritrary numbers are a fact in every aspect of life including aviation. They exists because it is prohibitively expensive to micromanage every single little detail in the lives of many people, including the skills of those who want to fly without an age limit.
Just keep dancing around reality folks.
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Green Guard
You're obviously unfamiliar with the datalink, CPDLC, call it what you like, so I'll help you out, mate.
It's a requirement to obtain ATC permission to go off track so a request for '10 left and right of track due weather' is a normal request to the non-flying pilot and is in miles, not degrees. That is the prompt.
Once approval is obtained the heading bug can be used to maneouvre within those limits.
I'm not 'young', I'm 60, but will definitely be departing the aviation scene before I end up being lampooned like some of my elderly colleagues who sometimes find routine tasks impossible, but somehow manage to keep their jobs.
They know they're not up to the job and you'd think they'd have the common sense to quit, but unfortunately not. One or two believe they're onto it and sharp as they were decades ago - it's what I call the 'indispensable syndrome', the company will go into receivership without them.
The most galling part for the S/O's for whom there is no promotion and for the best part are very experienced pilots is having to help these oldies do their jobs.
You're obviously unfamiliar with the datalink, CPDLC, call it what you like, so I'll help you out, mate.
It's a requirement to obtain ATC permission to go off track so a request for '10 left and right of track due weather' is a normal request to the non-flying pilot and is in miles, not degrees. That is the prompt.
Once approval is obtained the heading bug can be used to maneouvre within those limits.
I'm not 'young', I'm 60, but will definitely be departing the aviation scene before I end up being lampooned like some of my elderly colleagues who sometimes find routine tasks impossible, but somehow manage to keep their jobs.
They know they're not up to the job and you'd think they'd have the common sense to quit, but unfortunately not. One or two believe they're onto it and sharp as they were decades ago - it's what I call the 'indispensable syndrome', the company will go into receivership without them.
The most galling part for the S/O's for whom there is no promotion and for the best part are very experienced pilots is having to help these oldies do their jobs.
Last edited by skol; 30th Aug 2010 at 20:39.
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They know they're not up to the job and you'd think they'd have the common sense to quit, but unfortunately not.
NB.
You will be forgiven for not knowing this FACT.
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411A,
A couple of these guys have been hauled over the coals in the office for nodding off at a moments notice, day and night. OK, we all get tired and drop off from time to time but the idea is to let everyone know, SOP's etc, but a couple of them have almost lost control of their ability to stay awake, you think they'd get the picture and throw in the towel.
I flew with one a while back and after 2 hours in the bunkroom he got back in the RHS, and promptly fell over onto the right window and sidewall. I honestly thought the guy had kicked the bucket.
Send them off on a 9 day tour of duty with the boss, who's aware of what's going on, and all of a sudden they can stay awake.
Uncanny isn't it?
A couple of these guys have been hauled over the coals in the office for nodding off at a moments notice, day and night. OK, we all get tired and drop off from time to time but the idea is to let everyone know, SOP's etc, but a couple of them have almost lost control of their ability to stay awake, you think they'd get the picture and throw in the towel.
I flew with one a while back and after 2 hours in the bunkroom he got back in the RHS, and promptly fell over onto the right window and sidewall. I honestly thought the guy had kicked the bucket.
Send them off on a 9 day tour of duty with the boss, who's aware of what's going on, and all of a sudden they can stay awake.
Uncanny isn't it?
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could it be medication...authorized or not? and then the guy quit taking the meds when he went out with the boss?
I'm thinking blood pressure meds.
but guys, I've seen a thirty year old fall asleep too. I honestly would have reported him, but he was getting furloughed after that flight, so I let it slide.
I'm thinking blood pressure meds.
but guys, I've seen a thirty year old fall asleep too. I honestly would have reported him, but he was getting furloughed after that flight, so I let it slide.
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but guys, I've seen a thirty year old fall asleep too.
My last First Officer is a case in point.
Forty two, and slips off into a snooze at a moments notice, during cruise.
Twelve hours duty is far too much for him, it seems.
Ohhhh, the poor child.
He says he can't sleep in hotac.
He had better learn, or do without a salary...and F/O duties.
Some (but certainly not all) younguns simply cannot keep up the pace, it would appear.
Tough sh!te for them, I say.
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411A,
Here's my theory on what these dudes are up too.
Despite the fact they're well aware they're not up to the job, they don't want to quit while they're ahead.
It's going to be an ignominious end for some of these guys and then they'll claim stress or some such medical problem, go sick, get paid to stay at home for 6 months as per their contract, then finally go.
Either that or they're hoping the company will pay them to go, same thing.
Unlikely to be fondly remembered by their aviation colleagues.
You're probably curious as to why these guys don't become short haul captains for more pay on a different type, right?
The answer is they'll fail, one has already tried and never got past the simulator.
I'm not entirely unsympathetic to these old guys 411.
On one occasion I did a tour of duty to SFO for 5 days and the very elderly F/O bought his wife, now I know why he goes to work.
Here's my theory on what these dudes are up too.
Despite the fact they're well aware they're not up to the job, they don't want to quit while they're ahead.
It's going to be an ignominious end for some of these guys and then they'll claim stress or some such medical problem, go sick, get paid to stay at home for 6 months as per their contract, then finally go.
Either that or they're hoping the company will pay them to go, same thing.
Unlikely to be fondly remembered by their aviation colleagues.
You're probably curious as to why these guys don't become short haul captains for more pay on a different type, right?
The answer is they'll fail, one has already tried and never got past the simulator.
I'm not entirely unsympathetic to these old guys 411.
On one occasion I did a tour of duty to SFO for 5 days and the very elderly F/O bought his wife, now I know why he goes to work.
Last edited by skol; 31st Aug 2010 at 02:45.
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You simply cannot rely on an old pilot to gracefully retire. We begin to notice lack of situation awareness at our flying club, and persuade the older pilots to step down into limited duty (eg briefings, supervising the launchpoint, etc) where they are less likely to kill anybody.
But boy did I hate it when they did it to me!
But boy did I hate it when they did it to me!
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I'm also over 60 and still flying long haul while maintaining a class one Med and excellent performance results on my routine check rides/recurrent trng SIMs etc.
Although I'm obviously age bias I don't think it's fair to use age alone as a major factor of performance capability. I've flown professionally for 42 yrs and still enjoy my profession, when my performance begins to suffer or I feel I am no longer competent then I'll hang up the stirrups.
I fly routinely with young F/O's who have great difficulty regulating their rest periods or socializing at the detriment of their crew rest and cannot function properly without long sleeps in the cockpit.
We all need to be evaluated in our profession regardless of age, if we don't cut it then move on.
Although I'm obviously age bias I don't think it's fair to use age alone as a major factor of performance capability. I've flown professionally for 42 yrs and still enjoy my profession, when my performance begins to suffer or I feel I am no longer competent then I'll hang up the stirrups.
I fly routinely with young F/O's who have great difficulty regulating their rest periods or socializing at the detriment of their crew rest and cannot function properly without long sleeps in the cockpit.
We all need to be evaluated in our profession regardless of age, if we don't cut it then move on.
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WhatsaLizad 11: Itīs always intresting to read other points of view. But, in your case (post) I still do not see a conclusion? What should the cut of limit be for the ageing pilot population. And, on what criteria should we base it on (physical,SIMīs, statistics, pension plans or what?) Oh well, I still remember when I had to cross the open seaīs with Loran...how time flyīs!!
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I also remember Loran, which dates me. I also remember one of my final command checks, where the F/O fell asleep on finals, after an all night freighter flight. When I spoke to him afterwards, he admitted that it was not the first time. Youre going to find this hard to believe, but hed done it before whilst hand flying on finals. I later found out that at his previous company hed been notorious for it. Flying for an IT company, hed normally flown with his shoulder harness on. Otherwise he tended to bang his head on the coaming.
Having returned today, from an overnight flight from the middle of Asia, and not managing to sleep during the afternoon, I had a couple of naps on the way back. All as recommended, with the full knowledge of the F/O. Does that make me a Gummer, because the F/O did exactly the same in turn?
Having returned today, from an overnight flight from the middle of Asia, and not managing to sleep during the afternoon, I had a couple of naps on the way back. All as recommended, with the full knowledge of the F/O. Does that make me a Gummer, because the F/O did exactly the same in turn?
