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Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

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Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

Old 14th May 2010, 08:43
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I am curious about this photo - so much doesn't make sense. It appears that the engine remains are a long way North (ie perpendicular) to the debris field.

And what event causes that kind of damage - certainly nothing like the THY event.





Debris field:

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Old 14th May 2010, 08:48
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This picture was taken by somebody on a plane landing on 09
So the runway is on the left of the picture
The debris bield starts a little to the right of the picture, where the end cone is, and goes on for more than 8 hundred meters to the left of the picture, towards the south west corner of the airport perimeter fence
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Old 14th May 2010, 08:54
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Originally Posted by Sir Richard
Translation of the link in post #271 gives a clue to the nationalities of all the crew.
Nationality is not a factor.
So far, all the reports are confirming that this Captain and crew was really experienced and totally qualified to fly this aircraft which was brand new. They have been intensively trained here in Toulouse not so long ago. Maybe this place is quite dangerous in regards to Western standards but they were used to it, it was their home, and certainly landed several hundreds times here without any problem.

How many excellent Westerners crew were killed in many stupid accidents before our actual safety level could be reached? It still happens nowaday.
The whole system can not be adapted everywhere in a fortnight. Moreover, it is way too early to blame anybody for what happened. Maybe this aircraft had really a problem, the ATC screwed them, or both.
Some guy from the French pilot union said that is what happens when you sell a Mercedes to a camel driver.
I feel really sorry to be French when some idiots behave like that. Maybe in less than 10 years, those who thought the same today would be very proud to be hired by an Indian Company (or to be able to work).

S~
Olivier
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:02
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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Video

There is another video from the crash-site.
NOVA - detail - Uitzendingen
franzl
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:07
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Originally Posted by Cytherea
Also can anyone who is in the know confirm Takata's positional assumptions, Is the mosque where the empenage ended up definitely that structure highlighted - there seem to be too many anomolies in my interpretation of the picture, Lack of minaret, lack of road to RHS of mosque, vegetation differences...I'm just not sure and perhaps someone who knows the lie of the land there could confirm.
Did you see my previous post here:http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...l#post5691875?
The only difference is that the terrain from Google map is flat. But every detail corresponds, even the vegetation. The crossroad is here, the minaret doesn't lack, it is in the picture beside the two domes, but view from sattelite!
S~
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:13
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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It appears that the engine remains are a long way North (ie perpendicular) to the debris field.
Or maybe it's the APU....
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:25
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Originally Posted by HundredPercentPlease
I am curious about this photo - so much doesn't make sense. It appears that the engine remains are a long way North (ie perpendicular) to the debris field.
It is not perpendicular but roughly in the direction pointed by the horizontal plan of the tailfin shown from the air. This is an illusion due to perspective change (same for tail cone and tailfin pictures which seems way closer on the ground). The tailfin is not straight up and its surface is curved, then you can see the letters from a very different angle but the engine is North-East, much closer to the Runaway and not so far away. If the air picture was larger, you could see it on the left low corner where people are standing.
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:29
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Merci Olivier
Nationality is not a factor.
So far, all the reports are confirming that this Captain and crew was really experienced and totally qualified to fly this aircraft which was brand new. They have been intensively trained here in Toulouse not so long ago. Maybe this place is quite dangerous in regards to Western standards but they were used to it, it was their home, and certainly landed several hundreds times here without any problem.

How many excellent Westerners crew were killed in many stupid accidents before our actual safety level could be reached? It still happens nowaday.
Exactly my point, I'm all too well aware of the accident rate in Africa and the way aviation is managed across the continent, but 'generally' the accidents are with older aircraft & occasionally kamikaze crew. But I'm digressing from the topic; it brings me back to my question, the area of wreckage appears 'compact' Why would this be? Why are the obvious pieces of wreckage (tail fin particularly) in the position they are in?

Two other questions; can anyone now confirm that Alitalia (? I think) went around prior to this approach and did the Afriqiyah captain request ambulances to meet them? Two 'rumours' I've seen but not heard if they are just rumours or real facts??

Thanks
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:43
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Notation by OACI in june 2007

AuditReports3-CSA
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:57
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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This picture was taken by somebody on a plane landing on 09
So the runway is on the left of the picture
The debris bield starts a little to the right of the picture, where the end cone is, and goes on for more than 8 hundred meters to the left of the picture, towards the south west corner of the airport perimeter fence
That would mean that the Vertical Stab would be close to the beginning of the debris field
Strange.
That wouldn't really fit to the Cartwheeling theory:
In that case I would expect a wing Tip to initiate the trail. And the Tail should be found close to the end of the debris trail.

High AoA Tail hitting first:
Would have to be an EXTREMELY high AoA at first contact. Would require speed <100 kts. Doesn't really fit to a Debris Trail going on for another 1/2 mile.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:07
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Originally Posted by RetiredF4
There is another video from the crash-site.
Too bad, I can't read it. It seems localized.

For those still doubting of the crash orientation, here is two poor quality screenshots from yesterday's video here: Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

there is a short and dodgy right to left travelling from the airport fences, filled with smoking wrecks, to the trajectory of impact at 0.40-0.43 s. It is taken from where most of the big burned pieces of wreckage are lying (airport limits), then you can see the tailfin at frame 0.43 far in the background and in inverted position. (red arrow)


Previously, on this other plan, you can see also what remains of APU seen on picts posted above.(red arrow)
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:15
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If, as most speculators here seem to agree, there was a controlled flight into ground, what about the ground proximity warning? Would this have been switched off or just ignored. The FDRs and CVR will surely throw more light on this if in fact the case.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:22
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If the aircraft was fully configured the GPWS would not make a peep.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:32
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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In the Dutch video it also seems the bigger Parts which are charred (looks like Center Wingbox to me) are close to the Airport perimeter fence, i.e. towards the end of the trail.
At the moment I'm really struggeling to think of a crash sequence where the Tail is at the beginning of the trail and the Wingbox is close to its end !?
And all this with an extreme degree of fragmentation.

Edit:
after looking again at the debris and ground condition close to the Tail one remotely possible scenario could indeed be a high AoA contact with the Tail just scraping the ground, tearing off the Tail and the plane rising again (TOGA?) and then dropping again from a higher Altitude. Could explain the length of the trail despite high AoA and would also explain why no further fuselage fragments close to the tail are visible.
Moreover the ground around what I think might be the wingbox looks much more scarred.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:43
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Apart from the fact that the cause of this accident is as yet unknown, to imply that it was caused because the pilots were Libyan is blatantly racist.
Quite possibly.
Just a couple of years ago, I flew two (Libyan national) Captains from BEN to AMM, so that they could obtain the required entry visa into Taiwan.
Both (as I recall) went to work for EVA, and I don't think that they would have been successful, if they had not been up to snuff.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:57
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Takata..........

How many excellent Westerners crew were killed in many stupid accidents before our actual safety level could be reached? It still happens nowaday.
The whole system can not be adapted everywhere in a fortnight
Meanwhile we have to put our lives at perpetual risk while you catch up with the rest of the world. All you have to suffer is the occasional off handed remark, should you be African. Poor baby.

People died here. The lives of these people are worth more than your entire nation's aviation effort. When you kill people, expect criticism. Everybody else does.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:57
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If the aircraft was fully configured the GPWS would not make a peep.
Being brand new it was almost certainly equipped with Enhanced GPWS which would have detected the descent below the virtual terrain floor regardless of config.
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Old 14th May 2010, 11:00
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Henra,

Look at my comment #301.
I agree with you high AOA, tail strikes first, lost end cone, which is to the west of the tail complex, and then all the rest for nearly 1 km.
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Old 14th May 2010, 11:06
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Originally Posted by Arik
Two other questions; can anyone now confirm that Alitalia (? I think) went around prior to this approach and did the Afriqiyah captain request ambulances to meet them? Two 'rumours' I've seen but not heard if they are just rumours or real facts??
Rumors, like usual, stand unfounded until now. I don't think that the crash site is really "compact", at least 1 km long, without seeing exactly where is the point of impact (at least before the mosquée).
It seems possible that a collision with those buildings before the mosquée occured, or with the ground when trying to avoid those buildings. Aircraft was not level, it departed on its left (collision or avoidance). Impact was hard as tail was separated with a bad angle, then rotated or flipped. It was a missed final (for whatever reason) then certainly TOGA but too late.
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Old 14th May 2010, 11:19
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No Technical Problems Reported Before Libya Crash - Inquiry
Friday, May 14, 2010

TRIPOLI (AFP)--The pilot of the Libyan airliner that crashed with the loss of 103 lives reported no technical problems before this week's accident, the head of the commission of inquiry said Friday.

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

14-05-10 1109GMT

-------
Crash in Libya: the pilot had not reported any technical problem
(AFP) – Il ya 30 minutes (AFP) - 30 minutes ago

TRIPOLI — The pilot of al-Afriqiyah that crashed Wednesday near Tripoli, which killed 103, had not reported a technical problem on the aircraft before the crash, told AFP Friday Chairman of the Commission of Inquiry, Neji Dhaou.

"The pilot did not report any problems. Until last moment, things went quite normally between the pilot and control tower," said Dhaou.

"What I can confirm for now is that the aircraft struck the ground just before reaching the runway," he said, adding that investigators no "remove any hypothesis yet."

Last edited by snowfalcon2; 14th May 2010 at 11:42. Reason: Updated news at 11:41 GMT , translated from AFP
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