Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Most jet engines will fail quickly if exposed to that Iceland dust.
Why?
Because the engines' first stage turbine blades run in gas temperatures above their melting point. They don't melt normally because cooling air is blown through a multitude of small holes in the blades. If the unfiltered cooling air contains the Iceland dust this will rapidly clog up the cooling holes.
Result is melted turbine blades which break away to destroy the turbine causing the hapless pilot of the instant glider to pray while he transmit a May Day.
Piston engines will probably be OK for a while until their air filters choke off the induction air flow. Same with your cars.
Why?
Because the engines' first stage turbine blades run in gas temperatures above their melting point. They don't melt normally because cooling air is blown through a multitude of small holes in the blades. If the unfiltered cooling air contains the Iceland dust this will rapidly clog up the cooling holes.
Result is melted turbine blades which break away to destroy the turbine causing the hapless pilot of the instant glider to pray while he transmit a May Day.
Piston engines will probably be OK for a while until their air filters choke off the induction air flow. Same with your cars.
I am amazed that PPRuNe has so many expert avio-vulcanologists on board, so permit me to ask you a few questions. I'm sorry it goes on a bit, but being stranded here in New York I've little else to do.
1. How far was Eric Moody from the Indonesian volcano when the total engine failure happened ? How far are London Heathrow southbound departures from the current volcano ?
2. On a related point, what was the atmospheric ppm concentration of ash in the Indonesian incident ? What is the current ppm concentration over London ?
3. Am I not correct that both the Indonesian incident and the KLM one in Alaska were both effectively visual with the volcano (although at night/in cloud) ?
4. At the time of the Indonesian, or the Alaskan incidents, why was all airspace from Japan to Australia, or between Japan and Seattle, not closed down ? How did Indonesian/Alaskan aviation manage to keep all their internal operations going, just rerouting appropriately, and why did they not experience engine or instrument failures ?
5. We have had many volcanoes before, what is different about this one ?
6. Why is it that when I went to Hawaii some years ago I could have actually taken a sightseeing flight around a volcano there; I recall there was just a Notam about turbulence and a possible rock through the windshield if you got too close.
7. Why is Russian aviation, as much downwind from the volcano as anywhere in Western Europe, continuing unaffected ? Why are they getting no engine issues ? (and before some clever clogs comes along and writes about rugged engines from Soviet times, the Tupolev etc fleets have pretty much disappeared now, the bulk of Russian commercial flying is by Airbus and Boeing).
And finally ......
Should the Jobsworth who decided this, and has clearly no comprehension of handling a crisis, not be fired forthwith for gross incompetence and inability to serve their public, with no redundancy pay and no final salary pension ?
1. How far was Eric Moody from the Indonesian volcano when the total engine failure happened ? How far are London Heathrow southbound departures from the current volcano ?
2. On a related point, what was the atmospheric ppm concentration of ash in the Indonesian incident ? What is the current ppm concentration over London ?
3. Am I not correct that both the Indonesian incident and the KLM one in Alaska were both effectively visual with the volcano (although at night/in cloud) ?
4. At the time of the Indonesian, or the Alaskan incidents, why was all airspace from Japan to Australia, or between Japan and Seattle, not closed down ? How did Indonesian/Alaskan aviation manage to keep all their internal operations going, just rerouting appropriately, and why did they not experience engine or instrument failures ?
5. We have had many volcanoes before, what is different about this one ?
6. Why is it that when I went to Hawaii some years ago I could have actually taken a sightseeing flight around a volcano there; I recall there was just a Notam about turbulence and a possible rock through the windshield if you got too close.
7. Why is Russian aviation, as much downwind from the volcano as anywhere in Western Europe, continuing unaffected ? Why are they getting no engine issues ? (and before some clever clogs comes along and writes about rugged engines from Soviet times, the Tupolev etc fleets have pretty much disappeared now, the bulk of Russian commercial flying is by Airbus and Boeing).
And finally ......
I flew to London intending to return today but now some jobsworth has decided that they didnt have the power to change airspace after all so now no VFR movements in or out of the whole CI zone, while GA and commercial flights continue within the zone. This is just complete madness with regulations and ar** covering taking precedence over any real analysis of safety issues.
Last edited by WHBM; 18th Apr 2010 at 15:33. Reason: Got Eric's name wrong
Grandpa Aerotart
Computer models again?
GIGO - anyone know what the average correlation between computer models and the real world? My experience is that it is very low indeed.
AGW is purely based on models. So is economic theory and look where that got us these last few years.
GIGO - anyone know what the average correlation between computer models and the real world? My experience is that it is very low indeed.
AGW is purely based on models. So is economic theory and look where that got us these last few years.
KLM, acting on a European Union request, flew a Boeing 737-800 without passengers at the regular altitude of 10 km (6 miles) and up to the 13 km maximum on Saturday. Germany's Lufthansa said it flew 10 empty planes to Frankfurt from Munich at altitudes of up to 8 km.
"We have not found anything unusual and no irregularities, which indicates the atmosphere is clean and safe to fly," said a spokeswoman for KLM, which is part of Air France-KLM.
German airline Air Berlin said it had also carried out test flights and expressed irritation at the shutdown of European air space.
"We are amazed that the results of the test flights done by Lufthansa and Air Berlin have not had any bearing on the decision-making of the air safety authorities," Chief Executive Joachim Hunold said.
"The closure of the air space happened purely because of the data of a computer simulation at the Vulcanic Ash Advisory Center in London," he told the mass circulation Bild am Sonntag paper.
"We have not found anything unusual and no irregularities, which indicates the atmosphere is clean and safe to fly," said a spokeswoman for KLM, which is part of Air France-KLM.
German airline Air Berlin said it had also carried out test flights and expressed irritation at the shutdown of European air space.
"We are amazed that the results of the test flights done by Lufthansa and Air Berlin have not had any bearing on the decision-making of the air safety authorities," Chief Executive Joachim Hunold said.
"The closure of the air space happened purely because of the data of a computer simulation at the Vulcanic Ash Advisory Center in London," he told the mass circulation Bild am Sonntag paper.
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Well Milt, we know that. Please tell us exactly how close to Iceland we can fly before our engines fail. Is Australia far enough?
WHBM, nice post, you just summarised the whole of this thread in a nice and clear way. Anyone who mentions Moody again should immediately answer your question number two before proceeding.
WHBM, nice post, you just summarised the whole of this thread in a nice and clear way. Anyone who mentions Moody again should immediately answer your question number two before proceeding.
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Any limits / data ?
Hi,
i read the summary of the WMO meeting 2007.
In its final paragraph, it says that clear limit - data on acceptable
ash concentrations in the athmosphere are required from manufacturers
and authorities, as ash-clouds will become indetectable after a while....
but some ash residue will still be around.
So, does anyone know of limitations published since then ?
Best, Klaus
i read the summary of the WMO meeting 2007.
In its final paragraph, it says that clear limit - data on acceptable
ash concentrations in the athmosphere are required from manufacturers
and authorities, as ash-clouds will become indetectable after a while....
but some ash residue will still be around.
So, does anyone know of limitations published since then ?
Best, Klaus
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Reasonable proof
I hope the Dutch pilots association did not really say this. One empty 737 which did a flight and survived is not proof.
Our met offices probably have a good idea where the ash is and AMS is not far from the node. The issue is whether the ash density and makeup could affect safe flight at certain altitudes and, if so, which? Without this knowledge I would question how anyone can claim safe dispatch.
Our met offices probably have a good idea where the ash is and AMS is not far from the node. The issue is whether the ash density and makeup could affect safe flight at certain altitudes and, if so, which? Without this knowledge I would question how anyone can claim safe dispatch.
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Expat Chris
If you read this thread from the beginning you will answer your own question.. i.e knowbody knows when this will end. Check out the maps for yourself Met Office: Volcanic Ash Advisory Centres
theys are updated about every 6 hrs. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to interpret them.
If you read this thread from the beginning you will answer your own question.. i.e knowbody knows when this will end. Check out the maps for yourself Met Office: Volcanic Ash Advisory Centres
theys are updated about every 6 hrs. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to interpret them.
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You should note that other European governments have actually banned all flying, the UK hasn't chosen to go down that route and if they did it wouldn't be NATS who would make the announcement.
BD
(A NATS employee)
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It's OK - we can stop worrying
First of all Penko, and now someone else has said that it's pollen.
Thank goodness, I was quite worried for a while that it was something serious.
Thank goodness, I was quite worried for a while that it was something serious.
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If it is indeed the case that UK is NOT flying data-collection flights round the clock in areas where ash-particle concentrations are considered 'marginal', then the first question is: Why not??!!
It's already been suggested that there are a number of scrapper Nimrods not doing anything although presumably (to some extent?) serviceable. Use them and then UK Goverment might do something useful AND get back some of the collossal previous investment in these piles of superannuated junk. We might even strike lucky and find that the MR variants still have air-sampling kit fitted from COld War days....
Even if other types had to be used, at the current rate of financial loss by UK Ltd and especially air transport, scrapping ONE AIRCRAFT EACH AND EVERY DAY after 'unsuccessful' data collection would be well worthwhile.
So far, based on reports here, the Dutch have flown THROUGH rather then 'IN' the dust for short periods, and other European carriers have done some point/point flights which either avoided the dust via height selected or chosen route. Who's ACTUALLY, RIGHT NOW flying at heights / routes where 'acceptable' particle densities are believed to be, with continuous sampling of the dust? Apparently no-one. How silly is that?
It's already been suggested that there are a number of scrapper Nimrods not doing anything although presumably (to some extent?) serviceable. Use them and then UK Goverment might do something useful AND get back some of the collossal previous investment in these piles of superannuated junk. We might even strike lucky and find that the MR variants still have air-sampling kit fitted from COld War days....
Even if other types had to be used, at the current rate of financial loss by UK Ltd and especially air transport, scrapping ONE AIRCRAFT EACH AND EVERY DAY after 'unsuccessful' data collection would be well worthwhile.
So far, based on reports here, the Dutch have flown THROUGH rather then 'IN' the dust for short periods, and other European carriers have done some point/point flights which either avoided the dust via height selected or chosen route. Who's ACTUALLY, RIGHT NOW flying at heights / routes where 'acceptable' particle densities are believed to be, with continuous sampling of the dust? Apparently no-one. How silly is that?
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Fud vs Fact
so one lab in UK (are there any volcanoes there) runs a simulation and a few experts in eurocontrol decide it is true, with no facts on their hands...
and even if a plane flying close to the volcano is affected, does that mean that planes flying thousands of km away, within the "simulated" cloud as per the British vulkanians, are affected the same way- apparently NOT - and does dilution play a part - apparently yes-
good show old BOY ain't it - look mum, no hands..,
who is spreading fud over your job???
Last edited by atageorge; 18th Apr 2010 at 13:39. Reason: typos
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Driving back on the M6 Toll yesterday having managed to get back from Ankara (albeit 48 sleepless hours later than planned) we had a strange experience. We were weren't following any traffic when we heard faint crackling. Then we noticed shiny clear speckles on the windscreen and side windows. It was like wafer thin shards of clear glass. When we stopped they were stuck to the screen. we only had it on this stretch for around 5 miles. The sky was clear and weather was fine and sunny. It wasn't dramatic but certainly noticeable. It may of course be coincidence. Didn't encounter any more of it all the way up to Manchester.
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On the BA incident back in the 80's the engines did restart so I do not believe turbineblades had broken off or melted even in the worst scenario you could imagine.
So I remain that the only possible risk is higher maintenance cost due reduced engine life!!!
So I remain that the only possible risk is higher maintenance cost due reduced engine life!!!
Last edited by circuitbreaker13; 18th Apr 2010 at 13:41. Reason: typo
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On the BA incident back in the 80's the engines did restart so I do not believe turbineblades had broken off or melted even in the worst scenario you could imagine.
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circuitbreaker13:
On the BA incident back in the 80's the engines did restart so I do not believe turbineblades had broken off or melted even in the worst scenario you could imagine.
So I remain that the only possible risk is higher maintenance cost due reduced engine life!!!
So I remain that the only possible risk is higher maintenance cost due reduced engine life!!!
Judging some of the comments that SOME pilots have made today, I am increasingly satisfied with the need for ATC to provide some adult supervision in the world of aviation...
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Real data
What's need in this rather desperate situation is **real** data measured in a scientific manner by **real** sensors.
And this is exactly what Metair (www.metair.ch) and its partners have been doing since yesterday by flying a small, but very well instrumented research aircraft through the ash cloud measuring the sizes, composition and density of the ash cloud and the particles therein.
Yesterday, the aircraft flew for more than 3 hours and up to FL170 over Switzerland and came back with data nobody else in all of Europe has sampled so far (to our best knowledge). The data is currently being analysed by scientists and the Swiss autorities.
Today, the aircraft just came back from another mission, this time up to FL180, with another batch of extremely valuable data. The data is **already** with the Swiss autorities and there will probably be another flight later today.
The instruments on the aircraft are amongst the best science has to offer.
The aircraft is a Diamond Aircraft ECO-Dimona, a purpose-built special mission research aircraft carrying pods under the wings for scientific sensors (see Metair's website). MetAir is part of a world-wide network of a group of dedicated scientists and pilots who use this type of aircraft for all sorts of airborne research. The team has a reputation to deliver extremely valuable work and at a time, when it's most needed, without bureaucrazy and red tape. In just 4 weeks, this is the **second** time, that we were able to do this, after delivering the **only** reliable flood forecast from airborne lidar measurements just 4 weeks ago during the "floods of the century" in Queensland, Australia (through ARA- www.airborneresearch.org.au, the Australian partner).
Actions are needed based on solid science, not endless talk and politics.
And this is exactly what Metair (www.metair.ch) and its partners have been doing since yesterday by flying a small, but very well instrumented research aircraft through the ash cloud measuring the sizes, composition and density of the ash cloud and the particles therein.
Yesterday, the aircraft flew for more than 3 hours and up to FL170 over Switzerland and came back with data nobody else in all of Europe has sampled so far (to our best knowledge). The data is currently being analysed by scientists and the Swiss autorities.
Today, the aircraft just came back from another mission, this time up to FL180, with another batch of extremely valuable data. The data is **already** with the Swiss autorities and there will probably be another flight later today.
The instruments on the aircraft are amongst the best science has to offer.
The aircraft is a Diamond Aircraft ECO-Dimona, a purpose-built special mission research aircraft carrying pods under the wings for scientific sensors (see Metair's website). MetAir is part of a world-wide network of a group of dedicated scientists and pilots who use this type of aircraft for all sorts of airborne research. The team has a reputation to deliver extremely valuable work and at a time, when it's most needed, without bureaucrazy and red tape. In just 4 weeks, this is the **second** time, that we were able to do this, after delivering the **only** reliable flood forecast from airborne lidar measurements just 4 weeks ago during the "floods of the century" in Queensland, Australia (through ARA- www.airborneresearch.org.au, the Australian partner).
Actions are needed based on solid science, not endless talk and politics.