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Old 29th Nov 2009, 21:07   #61 (permalink)
 
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"But.....I treated every take-off as a max gross takeoff no matter what and even then added ten extra knots to everything."

Does that include V1 on a balanced field?...
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 21:07   #62 (permalink)
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
 
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Unbelievable really, the sheer number of MD-11's lost recently.

Incorrect entry of weights into the FMS is certainly plausible in this accident scenario, it wouldn't be the first time. Whether that was caused by finger trouble, or a gross load sheet error overlooked by all concerned remains to be seen.

Installation of the W&B system on that aircraft might have given the crew a heads up (transducers on all gears, transmits a relatively accurate computed weight and CG to the FMS, advisory info only). Very expensive option though, not many MD's have it, certainly this aircraft did not.

One other thing that came to mind, a failure of the center engine at V1, or worse, as the aircraft was rotated at Vr, would cause an enormous pitch up. Tried it many times in the sim, it's a nasty beast to handle successfully, even for highly experienced crews, and even when you know it's coming. Requires an aggressive and sustained push on the stick, something most of us are understandably reluctant to do close to the ground.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 21:14   #63 (permalink)
 
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I'd be interested to know any further info about this flight.

Was it an ad-hoc charter?
What was the flightplans for the aircraft to and from China? (Origins, destinations etc)
Cargo information...commodity, payload etc
Who was the aircraft flying for/booked by?
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 21:45   #64 (permalink)
 
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Ad hoc? Probably...So what?

CFP? PVG-FRU, do read the thread. From FRU? Don't know. Is it relevant to the accident?

Payload. Prob max. Is it relevant to TOW?

Who did it fly for? Who booked it? Does it matter? Could have been an ACMI for a big carrier, could have been a charter. Is it relevant to the crash? Its high-season, Christmas flying has started.

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Old 29th Nov 2009, 22:05   #65 (permalink)
 
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A conspiracy theory... didn't take long

Quote:
I totally agree with you. Some of americas finest aviators, a "fine" girl to fly, heaps of bitumen to scratch, a cold day. This deluxe combo decides to fly "chinese" cargo on a Z plate into a former soviet state within 2,500nm range.


Those who are involved in -F ops know that the likes of FRU, TAS, GYD amongst others are used as FUEL stops. MZFW PVG-Europe ain't gonna work non-stop.

Good grief, I suppose this is Bush's fault too.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 22:40   #66 (permalink)
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An impressive display of geo-political knowledge, but not really sure if it's relevant.

Pudong west-bound freight normally consists of cell-phones, laptops, name-brand golf clubs, and other items of Chinese manufacture, suitably pseudo-labelled after arrival at destination, thence considered to be of high value by Euro citizens of means and wealth. Marketing geniuses take note.

Central Russian airports, although by no means up to Euro standards, do offer long runways served by precision approaches, very nice hotels full of pretty, healthy and enthusiastic blondes, a refreshing frontier experience by anyone's standards, the layover considered to be quite exciting even by the itinerant freighter pilot's mostly questionable, and very exacting, wisely perceptive of requirements.

The Chinese are highly responsible in most things they do, the ancestors watch with a careful eye apparently; I suspect this accident will reveal a very ordinary technical failure of the aircraft, exacerbated, beyond normal standards of control, by the idiosyncratic nature of the MD-11.


I remain convinced, after more than 6000 hours, that she is a good ship. Effective training is the key to survival here.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 22:53   #67 (permalink)
 
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tsme -
Quote:
Does that include V1 on a balanced field?
V1 was based on actual weight. Not much choice there. But.....that is another problem area...V1. Actual runway length isn't always considered in the V1 calculation. You might have loss of power on an engine past V1 and have 10,000 feet of concrete in front of you. Are you going to continue? Book says yes, but I say no. Again.....it's a judgment call. But...we digress.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 23:08   #68 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faheel
You are correct in saying one way to fix the problem of putting the zfw into the gw field in the fmc is simply to block any data entry whilst on the ground, but why is it an expensive option?
I don't know Boeing's current FMC software pricelist, but I do know that this software fix has been offered by Boeing for quite some years already as a operator-selectable option. I.e, implementing this fix cost money. Not surprisingly, the beancutters in my company initially didn't see the importance of this option, and consequently we flew for years accepting a totally avoidable risk of gross crew input errors during the pre-flight performance calculations.

Quote:
My company did just that shortly after a tailscrape incident a few years back, anyway the cost of having that mod done to the fmc software has got to be a hell of a lot cheaper then repairing an a/c or worse still losing one.
I agree, and luckily my company nowadays thinks likewise. But similarly to your company, it took at least one "interesting" incident before the risk was fully acknowledged. This problem could have been fixed years ago. In my opinion, allowing a grossweight input on the ground (not in some obscure maintenance page, but in the PERF INIT page) is a serious ergonomic design error, and the fix should be mandated by Boeing, rather than offered as a payable option. (Perhaps this is also applicable to the Airbus FMS, but I don't know that equipment. But the problem certainly exists/existed in the Boeing and MD-11 FMSs.)


Of course, it remains to be seen if this scenario happened here. On first sight there seem to be similarities with other performance-related takeoff incidents and accidents, but it could very well be something totally different that caused this crash.

Last edited by xetroV; 30th Nov 2009 at 00:12.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 23:14   #69 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugg smasher
Unbelievable really, the sheer number of MD-11's lost recently.
I found only two - Narita and this one. Is Centurion at Montevideo confirmed to be a write off? It didn't seem so badly damaged.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 23:14   #70 (permalink)
 
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The crash site was a few metres from the vor at the end of runway 35R, only thing left of the aircraft was the tail section. Didn't look like it got airborne, I have aerial footage of the crash area but I am unable to upload it to this site.

Last edited by fcom; 29th Nov 2009 at 23:15. Reason: spelling
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 23:46   #71 (permalink)
 
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CIA is one of the largest cargo operators in the world and they sure don't push candy bars around. With Oliver North, Rendition flights etc america has't showered itself in grace of late and I think it's relevant to speculate for the same reason regarding the airbase.
The relevance of that irrelevancy to this accident is..... ?

I give up. Must be full moon.
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Old 29th Nov 2009, 23:54   #72 (permalink)
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Yeah the pictures don't make alot of sense. Wheel tracks leading off the runway, a flat field, then a massive fire/explosion that totally consumes most of the wreckage. Why? Why not wreckage similar to the Kalitta 747?
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 00:58   #73 (permalink)
 
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Has anyone heard from Fogrunner yet?
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 03:28   #74 (permalink)
 
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Does anyone know if this was the first flight after paint job? (you know where I'm going here).

Personal crib for T.O. V speeds....Use estimated T.O. weights and jot down/turn the cards to V2 (only T.O. V speed directly connected to weight). If finals are much different...something wrong.

Not a criticism...an observation.
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 03:43   #75 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Does anyone know if this was the first flight after paint job? (you know where I'm going here).
Apparently not, the plane was sighted in HKG a couple of days before the crash with the new paint job according to a mechanic I ran into this weekend.

Still, I had similar thoughts after seeing this picture on Huck's post with the cockpit windows possibly masked for the paint job:

ZSPD Cargo Plane Crash
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 06:27   #76 (permalink)
 
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Has anyone heard from Fogrunner yet?

Yes, he's ok.
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 07:59   #77 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
CIA is one of the largest cargo operators in the world and they sure don't push candy bars around. With Oliver North, Rendition flights etc america has't showered itself in grace of late and I think it's relevant to speculate for the same reason regarding the airbase.

On 3 February 2009, President Kurmanbek Bakiyev announced the imminent closure [oh we forgot to pay some fees] of the Manas Air Base. The closure was approved by Parliament on 19 February 2009 by 781 for the government-backed bill. However, after much "behind-the-scenes" negotiation between Kyrgyz, Russian and American diplomats [fees paid], the decision was reversed in June of 2009.
oh please... and I guess LH, UPS, and FedEx are doing similar work with their flights from PVG to the former central russian states and onward to europe... I agree with bugg smasher...
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 10:13   #78 (permalink)
 
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The FMS software is from the U.S. company Honeywell and is programmed in Phoenix, U.S.A.

They are responsible for the software and prices.

The guys making the software for Airbus and Boeing/MD11 are sitting on the same floor in rooms next to each other.

Who are the bad guys again ?

Last edited by Engine3firehandle; 30th Nov 2009 at 19:41.
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 11:00   #79 (permalink)
 
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I knew someone would bring that up.
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Old 30th Nov 2009, 11:23   #80 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
oh please... and I guess LH, UPS, and FedEx are doing similar work with their flights from PVG to the former central russian states and onward to europe... I agree with bugg smasher...
An operation run by (ex) mercenary registering it's plane in Zimbabwe (now that's original at least ). Flight from China to Kyrgyzstan... Not exactly routine Fedex / DHL in my book.
The actual cargo was perhaps irrelevant to this accident but I would bet a fair amount of money that is was not only consumer electronic & clothing...
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