I have been through that mental loop and the altitude error is so large that it would require a mis-read on the scale of the 'old' 3-pointer altimeters (the '10,000ft error' to put them in the sea there. I think the entry altitude should be 6000ft = around 200mb?
One other possibility is some sort of 'home-built' let-down to a 'round-the-rock' visual - that went wrong - then you could look at a sub-scale error?
German magazine DER SPIEGEL reported yesterday that by now 18 bodies have been recovered around the island of Mafia. Besides a weather radar gauge was washed upon the shore, amongst other debris. Mafia is located approx 100nm S of Zanzibar and 320nm NW of the Comores:
spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,635403,00.html
Very strange, indeed, that absolutely no official information is available anywhere about what happened. There must be ATC transcripts of the flight, radar tracks and stuff ... ?
Sorry folks, I'm still not clear on what approach was flown, other than it was a non precision. I can't find an NDB approach for HAH as such, but they appear to have an approach menu of either a Visual, VOR-DME or an ILS.
Most likely the VOR 02 circling to land 20? Anyone?
If it was an NDB 02 circling, then I'd think that a poor choice, unless the VOR was NOTAMed off the air.
RNP 0.3 is MORE than adequate for a NPA. Back when we didn't have RNP, an NDB approach was fairly accurately flown using the bird in the cage. (with timely and reasonably accurate mode selections)
I'm running with the notion it was an approach to 20 off a circling, based on the METAR.
FMCH 292200Z 18022G33KT 9999 FEW020 24/17 Q1018 NOSIG=
FMCH 292300Z 21025G35KT 9999 FEW020 25/16 Q1017 TEMPO 18015G30KT=
For the A310 pilots reading this thread.
Unless I'm missing the obvious, how is weather a problem here?
Circling for Rwy 20 the wind is practically on the nose. So, how is wind a problem? Turbulent? Most likely. Windshear? Probably.
My suspicion is horizontal shear rather than vertical shear due to the rocks. Potentially, a bit of both. FDR readings will give us a better idea. But, dare I ask, if windshear was present (regardless of type or direction) on finals, and the crew had difficulty with it, wouldn't the cropper be on final instead of in the water? So, if it was W/S go, the disorientation over water at night while hand flying sounds reasonable. Methinks a 'properly trained' crew would be "Positive rate", "Gear up, Auto Pilot Engage" Heading right over the water to fly the 02 miss to 6000'.
As I recall, on page 1 of the A310 FCOM, Airbus tell you the aircraft was designed for maximum use of the automatics. Autopilots are unlikely to suffer spatial disorientation if you provide the APFD with proper modes. As a previous poster pointed out, we humans get spatial disorientation most likely when hand flying over water, in a turn, at night.
I'm inclinded to suggest two basic sins might have been committed here. A lack of threat and error management along with an inadequate use of the automatics. Of course, we won't know for awhile if these are factors in this accident because I'm only speculating. (I love to speculate)
I am not assuming this crew was 'inadequately' trained or not 'trained to proficiency'. I assume they were. It may however, have been awhile since they found themselves in a similar situation. Some of us battle with that balance between optimum use of the automatics and our manual proficiency. Sometimes the untimely choice between the two issues, in the wrong situation or circumstance, can be disasterous. This just might turn out to be one of those times?
Last edited by Willie Everlearn : 11th July 2009 at 18:11.
A lot of airports you circle no matter which approach you use direction wise. TGU, Tegucigalpa, Honduras you did the vor 20 and circled to 02 90% of the time. To do the 02 approach required another 10 minutes and because of terrain you had to circle anyway. This airport looks a lot like that where you do the approach from the direction you are arriving and once visual continue on a visual approach.
I must concur with previous comments on this thread about the silence from the manufacturers and other interested parties. I apologise if this has been covered but I wonder how many times the pilot and the FO had landed at this airport at night.
as sarcastic as it may sound, there were not enough 'real' french passports on board...
I don't think this has anything to do with racism, but with cognitive dissonance, which would have been evoked widely, if there had been too much talk about survivors. According to the German Newspaper FAZ, the passengers knew the aircraft was in danger and had already put on their life vests. Bahiya, the now only survivor, mostly suffering from dehyration and hypothermia, does not remember how she made it into the sea. I translate a short paragraph:
Quote:
The passengers knew, that the aircraft was in danger. They had been told to put on their life vests, she said. The life vest saved Bahiya's life, as she did not learn to swim. At sea, she grabbed hold to a part of wrackage. In the beginning, she heard other survivors near to her, who later on probably drifted away or drowned. She was unconcious several times. At dawn, Bahiya was alone. A Comorian fishing boat spotted her and took her on board. She was conscious, and asked for water.
I noticed the widely spread notion, that the rescue of Bahiya would have been a miracle. It wasn't at all, especially not in the case if the pilots attempt ditching, as they obviously did here. At around 30 percent of all incidents over water there are some survivors, for some time, depending on impact speed and water temperatures.
The waters during winter at Southern Hemisphere should not have been that warm, much in contrast to AF447 incident. How could, in the latter case, the French government spread the notion of a near zero proability for survivors at the very first day? And give orders for a requiem be held at Notre Dame de Paris, just two days later? If one is in urgent need for miracles, here you go.
The incident also points to the need for a legal duty for coast side located commercial airports to be equipped with at least a single SAR plane and some speedy lifeboats.
Headlines this morning that the "Black boxes have been located'.
Rather cryptic. Says they were found by sonar mapping vessel amongst wreckage at a depth unreachable by divers. The vessel left the area and delivered the data to authorities ashore. A different vessel with an ROV expects to arrive at the site 'in August' to try and retrieve the boxes.
EDIT: Expandrd article now says it was a French Oceanographic Research Vessel that 'mapped' the wreck. The detailed maps were turned over to both the French BEA and the port director at Cormoros. Another French Research Vessel with an ROV and an experienced crew will arrive to retrieve the recorders.
Last edited by singpilot : 23rd July 2009 at 18:37.
Reason: expanded report
Till September 23rd 2009 EST. DLY BTN 1100/1700. Mines firing will take place at quarry NR2 centred on 185046S 0481809E altitude
1400meters. GND/FL190.
A 0488/09 R A0240/09
24/06
MORONI Prince Saïd Ibrahim Les Comores
Till September 24th 2009 at 2359 EST. Moroni info 4657 5658 and 13300KHz unserviceable. Use Moroni approach on 119,7MHz
A 0496/09 R A0245/09
26/06
ANTANANARIVO FIR
Till September 26th 2009 at 2359 EST. It is strictly prohibited for all acft to overflight the space area PSN center 185952S 0473215E
radius 3NM. A.C. will shoot without warning for
all offender. Except presidentials acft authorised
by the security. GND/FL245.
A 0497/09 R A0246/09
26/06
ANTANANARIVO FIR
Till September 26th 2009 at 2359 EST. It is strictly prohibited for all acft to overflight the space area PSN center 185400S 0473143E
radius 3NM. A.C. will shoot without warning for
all offender. Except presidentials acft authorised
by the security. GND/FL100.
A 0506/09 R A0251/09
29/06
ANTANANARIVO FIR
Till September 29th 2009 at 2359 EST. Meas-ures taken to apply from superior authorities. All civil flights except Air Madagascar and Strangers
airlines for international operating is prohibited
without special authorization or authorization
already delivered.
A 0507/09 N
30/06
ANTANARIVO FIR
From July 01st 2009 at 0500 to August 30th 2009 at 1300 . Daily BTN 0500/1300.
Aerial photography will take place Alaotra Man-
goro region – Delimitations Moramanga region
area WI following coordinates:
S1833 E04750- S1833 E04850- S1930 E01850-
S1930 E04750. FL100/FL200.
SO WHY NOT ASSUME THE AIRCRAFT WAS SHOT DOWN ACCIDENTLY AND FRENCH WANTS TO HIDE FACTS. THATS WHY NO RESCUE TEAMS ALLOWED TO GO NEAR CRASH SITE? IF THERE WAS A SURVIVOR HOW COME SHE WAS THE ONLY PERSON TO READILY GET AS THEY SAY A PIECE OF AIRCRAFT IN THE DARK? WHO WERE THE PEOPLE SHE HEARD TALKING IN THE DARK? WHEN THERE IS A CRASH OR EXPLOSION PEOPLE TALK OR SCREAM TO DEATH? WHY DIDNT SHE SCREAM FOR HER MOTHER?
WAS IT MIRACLE AS IN THEIR WORDS OR MADE UP STORY THAT THERE WAS A SURVIVOR?
TODAY IS ONE MONTH COMPLETE AND NO FAMILIES HAVE GOT BODIES OR WRECKAGE OF AIRCRAFT? BLACK BOX LOCATION WAS FOUND THEN WHAT HAPPENED TO IT? DID THE FRENCH PEOPLE SECRETLY GET BLACK BOX AND PRETENDING LIKE WHAT THEY DID WITH THE BLACKBOX OF AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 296 WHICH CRASHED IN JUNE 26TH 1988?
Yemenia official rules out human or technical error in plane crash
A senior Yemeni aviation official has dismissed the possibility of a technical or human error being behind the crash of a Yemenia aircraft into the Indian Ocean near the Comoros Islands last month.
Yemenia official rules out human or technical error in plane crash
So ... seem's this point to a comeback of the "jaccob scenario" .... a "external" event !
Nota : can be also a "night birds" ingestion .... all is possible ...
"The flight data recorder has been recovered from the sea almost two months after the Yemenia Airlines plane crashed near the Comoros Islands.
The so-called black box, which could reveal the cause of the crash, was found in the Indian Ocean at a depth of some 1,200 metres (3,900ft). "
Linear Mode
