ryr Landed In a taxyway by mistake in CAG
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89polaris;
I was wondering about NOTAM info. It took many posts for it to surface. None yet about the Metar, which is usually posted in great haste. I'm not sure if I understood the Notam. Where am I supposed to land? In northern Europe I'd expect ATC TWR to include in its landing clearance 34 L or R, or some other confirmation of which strip of tarmac to scrub the Dunlops onto. (what is the Italian equivalent of Watford for north/south delination?)
However, when there is doubt there is no doubt, so when in doubt double check. ASK.I'd be curious to know the last time either pilot had visited CAG and which strip they landed on.
There is another point, which I found great resistant to from previous airline managements. Flight preparation time in many airlines is not enough, especially with 4 sector days. Is 15 mins really sufficient. In Italy it is common to have an encyclopedia of Notams. If a destination has a longterm change in procedure or facilities why not have an ALERT white board in the crew room about it. I've seen it done with runway closures at the departure airfield; a full diagram of phase 1,2,3 etc. Why not the same with destinations? There are not that many occaisions. There are other scenarios such as ILS u/s for long periods. A flag up that a different approach and Wx minima are required. It would all help with Flight Safety and speedy flight planning. In these days of no flight dispatchers, and everything being self service, an oversight by the crews is going to happen more often. Every crewroom has a supervisor/manager,handling agent, but sadly their focus is not where it should be.
It will happen again, but there are always the pilots to blame.
I was wondering about NOTAM info. It took many posts for it to surface. None yet about the Metar, which is usually posted in great haste. I'm not sure if I understood the Notam. Where am I supposed to land? In northern Europe I'd expect ATC TWR to include in its landing clearance 34 L or R, or some other confirmation of which strip of tarmac to scrub the Dunlops onto. (what is the Italian equivalent of Watford for north/south delination?)
However, when there is doubt there is no doubt, so when in doubt double check. ASK.I'd be curious to know the last time either pilot had visited CAG and which strip they landed on.
There is another point, which I found great resistant to from previous airline managements. Flight preparation time in many airlines is not enough, especially with 4 sector days. Is 15 mins really sufficient. In Italy it is common to have an encyclopedia of Notams. If a destination has a longterm change in procedure or facilities why not have an ALERT white board in the crew room about it. I've seen it done with runway closures at the departure airfield; a full diagram of phase 1,2,3 etc. Why not the same with destinations? There are not that many occaisions. There are other scenarios such as ILS u/s for long periods. A flag up that a different approach and Wx minima are required. It would all help with Flight Safety and speedy flight planning. In these days of no flight dispatchers, and everything being self service, an oversight by the crews is going to happen more often. Every crewroom has a supervisor/manager,handling agent, but sadly their focus is not where it should be.
It will happen again, but there are always the pilots to blame.
A little birdy tells me that 32/14 (which looks like 32L/14R) has been closed for maintenance until a few days ago. And so it was that the taxiway was renumbered 32R/14L and so became the only available runway for some weeks.
Then what looks like 32L/14R became 32/14 again and 32R/14L became the taxiway all over again. It's all very simple really.
So, it sounds like a case of RTFNs (Read the Notams) always assuming that they were put out in good time.
Then what looks like 32L/14R became 32/14 again and 32R/14L became the taxiway all over again. It's all very simple really.
So, it sounds like a case of RTFNs (Read the Notams) always assuming that they were put out in good time.
Defence of MOL, versus comment about crew action??
There is the odd bit of defence of MOL in this lot. Whilst defence of the crew action due to runway changes is fully understood, who is the MOL fan here?
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To give credit to Ryanair, Part C (Airfield Briefings) of our Ops Manual had been updated on the 9th of April to reflect the fact that the main runway was re-opened. The question of whether A) The crews copy was up to date B) It was consulted or C) The runway was misidentified and the Professionals in the Tower were reading La Gazzetta and not doing their job of looking out the window and monitoring aircraft. Or a combination of any and all three.
Silverhawk
Oh Dear
.
Either an airfield meets internationaly acceptable standards or it doesn't. What's this got to do with Ryanair? Lufthansa and British Airways were on the ramp the last time I flew there along with Meridiana and Alitalia. I don't mind a vaild criticism of Ryanair but make a vaild point!
Silverhawk
Maybe it's the fact that the locos will accept these sub-standard airfields as acceptable destinations that causes these incidents.
.Either an airfield meets internationaly acceptable standards or it doesn't. What's this got to do with Ryanair? Lufthansa and British Airways were on the ramp the last time I flew there along with Meridiana and Alitalia. I don't mind a vaild criticism of Ryanair but make a vaild point!
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Isn't this the airfield where an italian airline (Meridiana I think) was told by the tower to go-around several times on short finals due to birds and then charged with landing without clearance when they decided the safest course of action was to land. I have not been there for a while but I remember ATC making it hard going, with last minute instructions for a circle to land etc. We were forewarned, but the guys following us in definitely sounded stressed.
I don't wish to be a killjoy here..... but there seems to be an awful lot of speculation and anecdotal evidence relayed.
I know that the Italian justice system works in a different way compared to that of the UK but ENAC and aviation in Italy is not *that* bad.....
Could we try to wait for some sort of report from people who get reasonably full information as to what happened, before we blame MOL / MOL's flunkies / some accountants / Irish CAA / captain / FO / ATC / Jeppesen / ENAC / the bloke in charge of painting the runway / the mafia / the little old lady down the road who runs the sweetshop / the sun for shining too much
I know that the Italian justice system works in a different way compared to that of the UK but ENAC and aviation in Italy is not *that* bad.....
Could we try to wait for some sort of report from people who get reasonably full information as to what happened, before we blame MOL / MOL's flunkies / some accountants / Irish CAA / captain / FO / ATC / Jeppesen / ENAC / the bloke in charge of painting the runway / the mafia / the little old lady down the road who runs the sweetshop / the sun for shining too much
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This is all very disappointing. I was expecting a much more tolerant attitude by the employees of a big multi-cultural company such as Ryanair.
I can only read adversion towards Italy and Italians. Fine.
No suprprise there: Italians and Britons do not like each other, they never did and never will. Having said that, is there any fact to help us understand how it happened?
If you're happy with the explanation "because it's Italy" will you kindly move on to the next thread?
And can anybody answer this: I have always had the impression that Ryanair is rather slow to adapt to changing scenarios. An example: it's been a few months since the introduction of new CDRs within Amsterdam UIR, almost everybody is using them when possible (Scandinavian, British Airways, Easyjet to name a few) but Ryanair. How happens? Can this be related to this incident? Is there sufficient staff to track all this changes (routes, NOTAMs...) and brief the crews? (I might as well have said "are they all reading the Sun instead of NOTAMs?" but I didn't ... or did I?)
I can only read adversion towards Italy and Italians. Fine.
No suprprise there: Italians and Britons do not like each other, they never did and never will. Having said that, is there any fact to help us understand how it happened?
If you're happy with the explanation "because it's Italy" will you kindly move on to the next thread?
And can anybody answer this: I have always had the impression that Ryanair is rather slow to adapt to changing scenarios. An example: it's been a few months since the introduction of new CDRs within Amsterdam UIR, almost everybody is using them when possible (Scandinavian, British Airways, Easyjet to name a few) but Ryanair. How happens? Can this be related to this incident? Is there sufficient staff to track all this changes (routes, NOTAMs...) and brief the crews? (I might as well have said "are they all reading the Sun instead of NOTAMs?" but I didn't ... or did I?)
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All my thought are going to the crew .
Hey guys i understand do not blame yourself too much
I'have been in italy for a long time , and yes CAG it's a nightmare as well as other places
RYR as nothing to do with that , it could happen to any other airlines
On top of that i have to admit that the safety records of RYR is amazing .
wait & see the investigation , i just hope that the political problems of the national carrier of Italy will not interf with the real problems
Italy is a great country with great pilots But ATC !!!!!!!
Cheers
Hey guys i understand do not blame yourself too much
I'have been in italy for a long time , and yes CAG it's a nightmare as well as other places
RYR as nothing to do with that , it could happen to any other airlines
On top of that i have to admit that the safety records of RYR is amazing .
wait & see the investigation , i just hope that the political problems of the national carrier of Italy will not interf with the real problems
Italy is a great country with great pilots But ATC !!!!!!!
Cheers
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Yes we have a Flight Safety Officer. I think it's an EU-OPS requirement? Anecdotally I note that my fellow crew are slightly reluctant and not very proactive about using the Confidential reporting system or filing Captain's special reports. I can't explain it, the company has requested them and I have found the FSO very welcoming of such reports and willing to act.
Originally Posted by John R
I'm a professional translator. Here is the translation (for free):
Press release
Ryanair aircraft lands on taxiway: Italian AAIB inquiry into the company and the proficiency of its flight crews.
The Italian AAIB has revealed that a Ryanair flight from Girona to Cagliari landed this morning on a taxiway rather than the runway at Cagliari airport.
No passengers were harmed by the landing.
The Italian AAIB has informed the ANSV (National Flight Safety Agency), the body responsible for conducting technical aviation inquiries.
Its Chairman Vito Riggio and Director-General Silvano Manero made clear that an investigation into the Irish airline and the proficiency of its flight crews would be carried out.
Press release
Ryanair aircraft lands on taxiway: Italian AAIB inquiry into the company and the proficiency of its flight crews.
The Italian AAIB has revealed that a Ryanair flight from Girona to Cagliari landed this morning on a taxiway rather than the runway at Cagliari airport.
No passengers were harmed by the landing.
The Italian AAIB has informed the ANSV (National Flight Safety Agency), the body responsible for conducting technical aviation inquiries.
Its Chairman Vito Riggio and Director-General Silvano Manero made clear that an investigation into the Irish airline and the proficiency of its flight crews would be carried out.
The press release is from ENAC (Ente Nazionale per l'Aviazione Civile), the Italian CAA.
The Italian AAIB is the ANSV (Agenzia Nazionale per la Sicurezza del Volo).
BR,
aerolearner
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Yes we have a Flight Safety Officer. I think it's an EU-OPS requirement? Anecdotally I note that my fellow crew are slightly reluctant and not very proactive about using the Confidential reporting system or filing Captain's special reports. I can't explain it, the company has requested them and I have found the FSO very welcoming of such reports and willing to act.
Hang on, two? Was there another besides Ciampino?
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GR, I'm but a mere line Pilot. I don't know, you'd have to ask him. However I perceive a lack of proactive reporting by crews, it's swept under the heading of "just a typical day at CAG" when they and Rome control should have their arses kicked for such a lack of co-ordination. Perhaps no such reports have been received?
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I'm by no means looking for an argument here: just wondering what the operational issues are, and how the 'customer experience' is adversely affected (not in Italy as a whole, I'm interested in Cagliari).
Cheers!
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RAT 5
I guess we all should wait for deeper analisys before issue verdicts. A/G communications, crew and atco reports etc.
But...
Wowwww... what a great explanation... 
...so next landing in BOS (an airport used to "have an encyclopedia of Notams") will be on 22L regardless of NOTAMs... because on 22L was my last one... 
according to the posted NOTAM
in CAG there is one RWY only: 32/14, no more. Anyway I can realize the reason of misunderstanding, you admit yourself
and
If you visit the already posted link you'll find it. And you can find also the expired Italian AIP SUP 20/07, referred into the NOTAM, with a simply search.
Simply spend few minutes instead to read the Mirror...
A-3TWENTY
This says a lot about your limited experience.
Ciao... pizza is waiting for me...
But...
I'd be curious to know the last time either pilot had visited CAG and which strip they landed on.
...so next landing in BOS (an airport used to "have an encyclopedia of Notams") will be on 22L regardless of NOTAMs... because on 22L was my last one...
I'd expect ATC TWR to include in its landing clearance 34 L or R
RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF NORMAL OPERATIONS ON RWY 14/32- NEW AERODROME LAY-OUT- COMPLETE REVIEW OF INSTRUMENTAL APPROACH PROCEDURESTHEREFORE AIP SUP 20/07 WILL BE IN FORCE UNTIL 08 APR 2009AIRAC WILL BE POSTED AND AVBL ON WEB SITE WWW.ENAV.IT. 12 FEB 15:55 2009 UNTIL22 APR 23:59 2009. CREATED: 12 FEB 15:56 2009
I'm not sure if I understood the Notam
None yet about the Metar
Simply spend few minutes instead to read the Mirror...
A-3TWENTY
The worst ever airport I flew to. It is worst than any airport in Africa !!!!!
Ciao... pizza is waiting for me...
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quixeven
Rome Control seems to have a very tortured communication link with CAG APP. They have absolutely no idea of the runway in use at Elmas despite giving the initial descent and arrival routing. Despite the fact that the ILS was out of service for the best part of a year they were advising us to expect a LOC approach. We'd plan for such, then arrive near the field at FL220 to be told by CAG APP that 32 was no longer available, join the 14 NDB straight in approach with 20 track miles to touch down, having intially expecting to route with many track miles via Carbonara VOR. We are happy to join any approach and help out ATC but we need to be kept informed of important information like runway changes and approach types. We can't just switch at the last moment. It's being asked to maintain high speed of 320Kts and then changing to CAG and being instructed to expidite speed reduction to minimum clean. No one really seems to know what is happening with the other.
While of course misunderstandings and mistakes can happen on both sides, this type of thing happens almost every trip to CAG.
Rome Control seems to have a very tortured communication link with CAG APP. They have absolutely no idea of the runway in use at Elmas despite giving the initial descent and arrival routing. Despite the fact that the ILS was out of service for the best part of a year they were advising us to expect a LOC approach. We'd plan for such, then arrive near the field at FL220 to be told by CAG APP that 32 was no longer available, join the 14 NDB straight in approach with 20 track miles to touch down, having intially expecting to route with many track miles via Carbonara VOR. We are happy to join any approach and help out ATC but we need to be kept informed of important information like runway changes and approach types. We can't just switch at the last moment. It's being asked to maintain high speed of 320Kts and then changing to CAG and being instructed to expidite speed reduction to minimum clean. No one really seems to know what is happening with the other.
While of course misunderstandings and mistakes can happen on both sides, this type of thing happens almost every trip to CAG.
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Silverhawk
I do not accept your point of view I am afraid as it seems to have very limited horizons, CAG is just one of thousands of airfields globally which can accept jet public transport equipment. I agree, to be fair, that these airfields can and should be placed under pressure to improve, happy to accept the landing/nav/handling fees, unwilling and slow to invest sometimes.
Ultimately we can (no criticism to RYR at all) make these fields safer by using mental flexibility and situational awareness, use energy management and forward planning to allow for any type of approach to either/any rwy. Discuss the prescence of Deci and be aware of the effect of a close in military airfield to options available to the controllers, tune in to your flt deck buddy and pop some extra gravy into the mains to alleviate the perceived pressure.
Can be good fun as well, no stress from me towards Ryr mates as those guys fly to a lot more challenging airfields than most with probably 10 times as many movements as some of the charters.
I do not accept your point of view I am afraid as it seems to have very limited horizons, CAG is just one of thousands of airfields globally which can accept jet public transport equipment. I agree, to be fair, that these airfields can and should be placed under pressure to improve, happy to accept the landing/nav/handling fees, unwilling and slow to invest sometimes.
Ultimately we can (no criticism to RYR at all) make these fields safer by using mental flexibility and situational awareness, use energy management and forward planning to allow for any type of approach to either/any rwy. Discuss the prescence of Deci and be aware of the effect of a close in military airfield to options available to the controllers, tune in to your flt deck buddy and pop some extra gravy into the mains to alleviate the perceived pressure.
Can be good fun as well, no stress from me towards Ryr mates as those guys fly to a lot more challenging airfields than most with probably 10 times as many movements as some of the charters.
