CNN Reports FEDEX crash in Tokyo
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No one questions the trageic and horrific accident. But seriously asking what the status of the airport is in no way disrespectful of what has occurred.
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Looks like it was N526FE (cn 48600/560).
N526FE Photo
Edit: Formerly Delta N813DE, converted for freight.
N526FE Photo
Edit: Formerly Delta N813DE, converted for freight.
Last edited by rotated; 23rd Mar 2009 at 03:33.
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MD11 Crash;
Unfortunately the MD11 is not the easiest airplane to land. We don't know the causes; the only thing we can see in the video is the first bounced landing; on the second the tail touches the RWY braking apart; the left wing contacts the ground fliping the aircraft upside down.
Lets wait and see...
Lets wait and see...
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Looks like something quite nasty occurred at the first touchdown, but the a/c was well stalled and short of control authority and thrust during the main bounce.
The MD-11 will have more MOI (inertia) in the pitching plane than a twin of course
The MD-11 will have more MOI (inertia) in the pitching plane than a twin of course
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the short runway(34R) is only capable for 772 and below, so no departure for 747/773/346 at least this morning only what abt 345?
As a solution, would it not be possible for the 744's etc. to take on a splash of fuel and stop off at some other strip somewhere to avoid cancelling flights? Or is 34R just not long enough for a fully loaded 744, albeit with a light fuel load?
As a solution, would it not be possible for the 744's etc. to take on a splash of fuel and stop off at some other strip somewhere to avoid cancelling flights? Or is 34R just not long enough for a fully loaded 744, albeit with a light fuel load?
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Weapons Hot
Thank you for your accurate transcription of what MD11 pilots have experienced for years- the major operators took the time to give formal instruction to their crews on the best techniques for the 'quirks' of this aircraft-- the rest of us had to glean what we could. Having said that- I loved this airplane, but it had some serious defects, namely, for some unknown reason, they(McDonald Douglas) decided to reduce the size of the elevator. As a result , after the engineers worked with the design, they had to install a computerized control system (known as an LSAS-- Longitudinal Stability Augmentation System) to help with pitch control. If this system was lost in flight the penalties were severe. How this design flaw may have played into this accident, I don't know, but all the DC10 pilots I knew said that McD D. took a step backwards when they built this AC (from a pilots handling POV)
Thank you for your accurate transcription of what MD11 pilots have experienced for years- the major operators took the time to give formal instruction to their crews on the best techniques for the 'quirks' of this aircraft-- the rest of us had to glean what we could. Having said that- I loved this airplane, but it had some serious defects, namely, for some unknown reason, they(McDonald Douglas) decided to reduce the size of the elevator. As a result , after the engineers worked with the design, they had to install a computerized control system (known as an LSAS-- Longitudinal Stability Augmentation System) to help with pitch control. If this system was lost in flight the penalties were severe. How this design flaw may have played into this accident, I don't know, but all the DC10 pilots I knew said that McD D. took a step backwards when they built this AC (from a pilots handling POV)
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A&L, ARC, Md11, Md10,
See other App&Ldg, ARC cases:
ARC = Abnormal Rwy Contact
-- MD11 / 4Nov94 Lndg, ARC, tailstrike, ANC
-- MD-11 FDX 71 / 16May96 tail strike, landing ANC 24R
-- MD-11 Alitalia / 19Aug94 I-DUPO hard landing at ORD
-- MD10 /31Jul97 at EWR
-- MD11 / 22Aug99 Hong Kong
-- MD11 / 22May00 Taipei
-- MD11 / 20Nov01 Taipei
-- MD11 / 16Jun02 Subic
-- MD10F / 18Dec03 FedEx MEM
-- MD11/ 19Sep04 MEM, airplane had previously been involved in an incident involving a flight control malfunction on approach to Subic Bay, Philippines, on June 16, 2002 (NTSB # DCA02MA042)
-- MD11F / 7Jun05 SDF, http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050627X00874&key=1
-- MD10 28Jul06 MEM LHS MLG fail
ARC = Abnormal Rwy Contact
-- MD11 / 4Nov94 Lndg, ARC, tailstrike, ANC
-- MD-11 FDX 71 / 16May96 tail strike, landing ANC 24R
-- MD-11 Alitalia / 19Aug94 I-DUPO hard landing at ORD
-- MD10 /31Jul97 at EWR
-- MD11 / 22Aug99 Hong Kong
-- MD11 / 22May00 Taipei
-- MD11 / 20Nov01 Taipei
-- MD11 / 16Jun02 Subic
-- MD10F / 18Dec03 FedEx MEM
-- MD11/ 19Sep04 MEM, airplane had previously been involved in an incident involving a flight control malfunction on approach to Subic Bay, Philippines, on June 16, 2002 (NTSB # DCA02MA042)
-- MD11F / 7Jun05 SDF, http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050627X00874&key=1
-- MD10 28Jul06 MEM LHS MLG fail
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MD-11 Lanidng
I am shocked to learn of the death of the crew members, so my thoughts and prayers are with their families at this time.
Now, after all of the written BS on the AMS 737 NG accident prior to any released information, I would like to set the record straight regarding the MD-11 landing. It is a real handful in a crosswind, especially gusty conditions as per the HKG accident.
I have over 7000 hours flying this type so here is some information on what happens during the landing of the MD-11.
After moving off the MD-11 fleet, there was an update to the LSAS and the corresponding software (cant remember all the details as I am not an engineer) which made an input to the elevator, so as to avoid tail strikes near the flare and main wheel touchdown. This input applied "nose down" elevator which was not evident to the crew in terms of "feel" on the control column.
The autothrottle is "full time" to 50 Feet RA when it will start to retard. It was long felt by seasoned crew that this height was too "high" for this to occur. The need to "override" the A/T in gusty conditions made for a better touch down. Keep in mind that the Md-11 at near MLW will achieve a descent rate of about 1100-1200 FPM in steady wind conditions.
For the descent rate to be "arrested" near the flare point, is the hardest item to be trained during line operations.
On touch down the ground spoilers will only partially deploy, which produces a "pitch up" moment. Until the software update and even after the deployment of the update, the pilot flying had to apply some forward control column pressure so as to stop the pitch up moment, which could easliy strike the number 3 VHF aerial at the bottom of the rear fuselage. When the nose gear was lowered to the runway, the ground spoilers then fully extended with subsequent tail engine reverse thrust now being made available (sleeves will not translate fully until nose gear touchdown) Only the wing mounted engines are able to use full reverse thrust with or without nose wheel touch down.
I will make no assumptions as to the cause of this accident except to say that we should leave the experts to voice their findings.
Now, after all of the written BS on the AMS 737 NG accident prior to any released information, I would like to set the record straight regarding the MD-11 landing. It is a real handful in a crosswind, especially gusty conditions as per the HKG accident.
I have over 7000 hours flying this type so here is some information on what happens during the landing of the MD-11.
After moving off the MD-11 fleet, there was an update to the LSAS and the corresponding software (cant remember all the details as I am not an engineer) which made an input to the elevator, so as to avoid tail strikes near the flare and main wheel touchdown. This input applied "nose down" elevator which was not evident to the crew in terms of "feel" on the control column.
The autothrottle is "full time" to 50 Feet RA when it will start to retard. It was long felt by seasoned crew that this height was too "high" for this to occur. The need to "override" the A/T in gusty conditions made for a better touch down. Keep in mind that the Md-11 at near MLW will achieve a descent rate of about 1100-1200 FPM in steady wind conditions.
For the descent rate to be "arrested" near the flare point, is the hardest item to be trained during line operations.
On touch down the ground spoilers will only partially deploy, which produces a "pitch up" moment. Until the software update and even after the deployment of the update, the pilot flying had to apply some forward control column pressure so as to stop the pitch up moment, which could easliy strike the number 3 VHF aerial at the bottom of the rear fuselage. When the nose gear was lowered to the runway, the ground spoilers then fully extended with subsequent tail engine reverse thrust now being made available (sleeves will not translate fully until nose gear touchdown) Only the wing mounted engines are able to use full reverse thrust with or without nose wheel touch down.
I will make no assumptions as to the cause of this accident except to say that we should leave the experts to voice their findings.
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From the NY Times:
"Video footage of the crash showed a massive fireball erupting from the plane just as it touched down. The plane then veered to its left, skidded off the runway and flipped over. Fire engines rushed to the scene and sprayed the plane with foam."
You gotta wonder if the reporter (Mark McDonald in HK) really watched the same video as us....
"Video footage of the crash showed a massive fireball erupting from the plane just as it touched down. The plane then veered to its left, skidded off the runway and flipped over. Fire engines rushed to the scene and sprayed the plane with foam."
You gotta wonder if the reporter (Mark McDonald in HK) really watched the same video as us....
As the video shows, a bounced landing can snatch away control of the aircraft almost faster than you can blink. The only real defense is to brief it on approach if it's a possibility and have a plan ready, because you will have zero thinking time once it starts.
By comparison, Capt. Sullenberger had an eternity to consider his options and make his decision.
And the best pilot in the world can get dropped on the runway if a gust knocks 13 knots off the airspeed at just the wrong moment in the flare.
By comparison, Capt. Sullenberger had an eternity to consider his options and make his decision.
And the best pilot in the world can get dropped on the runway if a gust knocks 13 knots off the airspeed at just the wrong moment in the flare.
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It certainly looks bad...don't think anyone could have survived that.
You gotta wonder if the reporter (Mark McDonald in HK) really watched the same video as us....
Last edited by Airbubba; 23rd Mar 2009 at 04:10.
Just call me Rotty
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Locally they are airing some very high quality HD video of the crash, between that and the FDR's this may turn out to be one of the most clearly documented accidents ever.
Hopefully it will help prevent another.
Hopefully it will help prevent another.
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The first touchdown seems almost normal apart from the rapid nose drop after maingear touchdown. Windshear perhaps?
May it have been so simple as an attempt to catch the rapidly dropping nose caused the aircraft to get airborne again after the nosewheel bounced, but not at flying speed or with speedbrakes now extended, causing the second fatal nose drop?
Power may even have been coming on for a go around but the rapidly dropping nose made the situation unrecoverable?
How quickly things can turn to ****....
May it have been so simple as an attempt to catch the rapidly dropping nose caused the aircraft to get airborne again after the nosewheel bounced, but not at flying speed or with speedbrakes now extended, causing the second fatal nose drop?
Power may even have been coming on for a go around but the rapidly dropping nose made the situation unrecoverable?
How quickly things can turn to ****....
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good day to be at home
It looks like after the nose gear collapsed and it was yanked into the air only to stall driving the nose into the ground for the second time. Was it an -11 or a -10 conversion? I spent five years on the -10-30 but never saw any conditions like that. Is it 16L or 34R that has the small valley off the end of the runway? Sad day!