EK407 Tailstrike @ ML
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...or the B-17 "Liberty Belle". I rode in this newly-rebuilt ship four years ago, and noted that every stringer was spliced (very professionally) aft of the waist gun positions. I'm sure that at least two wrecks went into rebuilding this ship.
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Emirates
As a Long-haul Fligtsr etired Pilot, i think this accident is mainly due to the pilots fatigue :
<< The pilot, a 42-year-old European man, spoke to the Sunday Herald Sun on the condition his identity not be revealed.
HE had slept for only 3 1/2 hours in the 24 hours before the flight taking off on March 20.
Since the accident, several Emirates pilots have spoken to the Sunday Herald Sun, saying fatigue was a major problem with the airline, which is one of the world's largest long-haul carriers
The pilot said it was hard for him to know if he was fatigued or not, but that he had very little sleep when the near-fatal error was made.
"I had the flown the maximum in the last 30 days. One hundred hours in 28 days, it's an Emirates rule," he said.
"I'd flown 99 hours. You can fly 100 hours in a month. There a big difference in long-haul, nights, it's a mix of everything."
He said he had told ATSB investigators he had little sleep in the day before to the 10.30pm flight on Friday, March 20.
This long-haul flying is really, really fatiguing. Really demanding on your body," he said.
"When I did that take-off in Melbourne I had slept 3 1/2 hours in 24 hours.
"You feel sort of normal, abnormal."
He said he had been in Melbourne for 24 hours before his flight.
"That (the Melbourne-Dubai flight) is the most tiring trip I have done in my career.
"You're always out of whack."
The pilot said he and other pilots tried hard not to make any mistakes, but occasionally errors happened.
"It's never on purpose," he said.
He said there had been four pilots in the cockpit - he and the co-pilot, who had been at the controls as the plane taxied along the runway, and two augmenting pilots who were on board because of the length of the 14 1/2 hour flight to Dubai.>>
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<< The pilot, a 42-year-old European man, spoke to the Sunday Herald Sun on the condition his identity not be revealed.
HE had slept for only 3 1/2 hours in the 24 hours before the flight taking off on March 20.
Since the accident, several Emirates pilots have spoken to the Sunday Herald Sun, saying fatigue was a major problem with the airline, which is one of the world's largest long-haul carriers
The pilot said it was hard for him to know if he was fatigued or not, but that he had very little sleep when the near-fatal error was made.
"I had the flown the maximum in the last 30 days. One hundred hours in 28 days, it's an Emirates rule," he said.
"I'd flown 99 hours. You can fly 100 hours in a month. There a big difference in long-haul, nights, it's a mix of everything."
He said he had told ATSB investigators he had little sleep in the day before to the 10.30pm flight on Friday, March 20.
This long-haul flying is really, really fatiguing. Really demanding on your body," he said.
"When I did that take-off in Melbourne I had slept 3 1/2 hours in 24 hours.
"You feel sort of normal, abnormal."
He said he had been in Melbourne for 24 hours before his flight.
"That (the Melbourne-Dubai flight) is the most tiring trip I have done in my career.
"You're always out of whack."
The pilot said he and other pilots tried hard not to make any mistakes, but occasionally errors happened.
"It's never on purpose," he said.
He said there had been four pilots in the cockpit - he and the co-pilot, who had been at the controls as the plane taxied along the runway, and two augmenting pilots who were on board because of the length of the 14 1/2 hour flight to Dubai.>>
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Indeed, so we sanction cuts & shuts on aircraft now ?
A 707 (Pan Am? TWA?) had its cockpit explosively removed by Damascus terrorists in the late 60s. About the same time a BOAC/BA 707 was nearly destroyed by an engine fire at LHR. Those clever engineers snipped off the cockpit of the latter and spliced it to the fuselage of the former. I think it continued in service until the 707 fleet was retired.
The nose section of G-ARWE was salvaged, and used on a Boeing 707-331B, TWA's N28714, [1] c/n 18408. [6] The recipient aircraft was previously registered N779TW, which had been hijacked on a flight from Rome to Athens . Its cockpit had been destroyed by a bomb at Damascus , Syria on 29 August 1968 . The aircraft was sold to Pan Am as N706PA.
Last edited by barit1; 30th Jul 2009 at 00:24.
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About the same time a BOAC/BA 707 was nearly destroyed by an engine fire at LHR
Remember that, very tragic, I think one of the cabin crew received a George Cross (posthumous) as she went back into the fire after having helped others out.
A terribly frightening circuit and approach but they got it down and stopped OK then wind direction became a problem as well as the slides twisting and burning
<< That's the engine falling off.The five people killed in the accident were Flight attendant Jane Harrison (the only George Cross awarded in peacetime); an elderly wheelchair bound woman; a widowed woman on her way to visit her brothers; an Australian teacher; and an eight year old girl who was emigrating to Perth with her family.[1]
The Chief Flight attendant, Neville Davis Gordon received the British Empire Medal. (4 pax lost out of 116)
The aircraft involved in the accident was a Boeing 707-465 registered G-ARWE (manufacturers serial number 18373, Boeing line number 302).
Last edited by HarryMann; 30th Jul 2009 at 02:51.
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Hi!
Days-weeks ago there was an idea here to take Etihad's scrapped A340-600's tail to this Emirates A340-500...
Although it was definately a humour-rumour, I suppose this couldn't be made indeed. Look at this:
The remains of the Airbus A340-600 (msn 856) written off before delivery to Etihad on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
A340-642 MSN0856 F-WWCJ [EY] remains on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Days-weeks ago there was an idea here to take Etihad's scrapped A340-600's tail to this Emirates A340-500...
Although it was definately a humour-rumour, I suppose this couldn't be made indeed.
Look at this:The remains of the Airbus A340-600 (msn 856) written off before delivery to Etihad on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
A340-642 MSN0856 F-WWCJ [EY] remains on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
DIRECTOR
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HarryMann re that B707 at LHR. I seem to recall the F/E and/or Pilot failed to pull the fire handle resulting in fuel feeding the fire?
I only recall this vaguely as it came up for discussion during my B707 conversion. The engine dropped of near Epsom I think?
I only recall this vaguely as it came up for discussion during my B707 conversion. The engine dropped of near Epsom I think?
Last edited by thegypsy; 10th Aug 2009 at 14:59.
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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If you click on [1] on in HarryMann's posting above, it will lead you to a comprehensive and reasonably accurate description of events that day.
Just to avoid thread drift.
Just to avoid thread drift.
Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 10th Aug 2009 at 19:27.
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Update on EK tailstrike in MEL
Emirates near-miss vanished on radar at Melbourne | The Australian
What really happened - from the cockpit:
The devil is in the data | The Australian
What really happened - from the cockpit:
The devil is in the data | The Australian
Last edited by cielazur; 12th Sep 2009 at 09:16. Reason: Add URL
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notable excerpts from the article linked to by cielazur
The Emirates Airbus contained a laptop that calculated take-off speeds based on the manual input from the pilots of various parameters including take-off weight, temperature, air pressure and wind. The pilot's calculations are then checked by the captain as part of what Emirates says is a four-part process of cross-checks.
Somehow, during the preflight calculations, one of the Emirates pilots -- it's unclear who -- entered the aircraft's weight as being 262 tonnes when in fact it was 362 tonnes.
But a colleague, whose identity is also unclear, failed to pick up the mistake during the cross-checks.
This 100-tonne difference was the equivalent to the aircraft having an extra 20 African elephants on board, or a fully grown adult blue whale.
Somehow, during the preflight calculations, one of the Emirates pilots -- it's unclear who -- entered the aircraft's weight as being 262 tonnes when in fact it was 362 tonnes.
But a colleague, whose identity is also unclear, failed to pick up the mistake during the cross-checks.
This 100-tonne difference was the equivalent to the aircraft having an extra 20 African elephants on board, or a fully grown adult blue whale.
In other words, if the spreadsheet had them enter
fuel load taken on (noting the current fuel already on board)
number/weight of passengers
weight of luggage freight
THEN the manually calculated take-off weight
The system would then have a way of self-validating it's inputs. Its easy to say the pilots should have caught the error, but their impaired state led to the error in the first place! And what we know of human confirmation-bias also tells us that if you use the same evaluation process twice, you'll tend to get the same results...twice!
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Proper use of the laptop technology
It is IT 101 to design a spreadsheet that can do the calcs, but the addition of some simple questions would have averted this error.
How about Aircraft type, sector time, no of passengers. These three components would give a weight range for the flight, anything put into the calculation from that point that was not within spec should have generated an error.
Very very simple.
Anyone got an overview of the 'program'?
How about Aircraft type, sector time, no of passengers. These three components would give a weight range for the flight, anything put into the calculation from that point that was not within spec should have generated an error.
Very very simple.
Anyone got an overview of the 'program'?
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Emirates news management
At in the air - news, views and tips for frequent travellers there is comment on how Emirates has shot itself in the foot over trying to manage this story.How imminent is the Australian report on the incident?
"This is where it becomes very difficult for Emirates. The original story was “news” in Australia for a day or two but would have been unlikely to get outside the country. However, Emirates felt it necessary to produce a detailed rebuttal of the story – and this was sent all round the world and appeared in many publications that would never have bothered with the original."
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What log is the publisher of "inside Traveller" hiding under?
Does this person seriously believe that news of such an incident would be "unlikely to get outside the country"
Why, because Orstraaleea is so far away???....and they don't have this modern technology stuff way down there.
Yes, Emirates did stuff up...but I would say Inside Traveller just stuffed up their credibility.
And the report is out...go back in the thread
Does this person seriously believe that news of such an incident would be "unlikely to get outside the country"
Why, because Orstraaleea is so far away???....and they don't have this modern technology stuff way down there.
Yes, Emirates did stuff up...but I would say Inside Traveller just stuffed up their credibility.
And the report is out...go back in the thread
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Hello,
system has a "built-in" cross-cheking.. if it is used. After entering data from the load sheet to MCDU's INIT-B page check out the trip and extra fuel calculated by the system and compare them with the values you have in the OFP. Then make performance calculations with laptop and check clean speed ("Green dot") calculated by the laptop against the one on PERF-page. As clean speed is only function of a/c mass you will spot errors in no time.
system has a "built-in" cross-cheking.. if it is used. After entering data from the load sheet to MCDU's INIT-B page check out the trip and extra fuel calculated by the system and compare them with the values you have in the OFP. Then make performance calculations with laptop and check clean speed ("Green dot") calculated by the laptop against the one on PERF-page. As clean speed is only function of a/c mass you will spot errors in no time.
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RE Shingles
Hi there not sure if you have already seen the prelim report but the ATSB here in Australia released some time ago a report regading the incident which if you havent seen has some intersting pictures and the prelim findings
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I really think Trackmaster has not understood my comment - I apologise for not being clearer.
I was simply echoing the point made in the blog that Emirates' professional and thorough rebutal to the points raised in the preliminary enquiry of this incident were in a sense counterproductive because they reignited to a wider audience a story that happened far far away (Orstraaleea) some some time ago - in fact the world had moved and they hadn't noticed.
This a problem for new managers everywhere, but I for one take some comfort in the thought that perhaps that the old saw "all publicity is good publicity" does not actually hold up in all instances.
And has the final report been released? I've googled but can find nothing - then I'm not an expert.
I was simply echoing the point made in the blog that Emirates' professional and thorough rebutal to the points raised in the preliminary enquiry of this incident were in a sense counterproductive because they reignited to a wider audience a story that happened far far away (Orstraaleea) some some time ago - in fact the world had moved and they hadn't noticed.
This a problem for new managers everywhere, but I for one take some comfort in the thought that perhaps that the old saw "all publicity is good publicity" does not actually hold up in all instances.
And has the final report been released? I've googled but can find nothing - then I'm not an expert.
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Pilotti
This sounds awfully like a half baked program. If you use proper IT systems, you write a 'program' with significant cross checking.
A spreadsheet is not a program, full stop. It can be altered and does not have adequate cross referencing. This is not to say what is used, nothing has been forthcoming from EK as yet.
Anyone got a sample?
A spreadsheet is not a program, full stop. It can be altered and does not have adequate cross referencing. This is not to say what is used, nothing has been forthcoming from EK as yet.
Anyone got a sample?
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Limelight,
My God you are absolutely right. 48 pages and 948 posts just to discover the spread sheet a few of the boys put together one night after a few too many at Scarlets just isn't up to the job......
Rest assured, the program is as good as any. The SOP, if followed, was pretty robust but has been updated and improved to placate the authorities.
The human interface can screw up any system given the right set of circumstances.
My God you are absolutely right. 48 pages and 948 posts just to discover the spread sheet a few of the boys put together one night after a few too many at Scarlets just isn't up to the job......
Rest assured, the program is as good as any. The SOP, if followed, was pretty robust but has been updated and improved to placate the authorities.
The human interface can screw up any system given the right set of circumstances.
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A spreadsheet is not a program, full stop. It can be altered and does not have adequate cross referencing.
I used to have to do SQA (software quality assurance) on engine performance programs that had far less safety implications than EK's. And after my programs were signed off, they were compiled into 1's and 0's as a bulletproof executable routine.
Can't believe that isn't a "best practices" in the industry.
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Does any one know ths status of the aircraft repair and when it is expected to fly again.
Also what happened to the pilots who were forced to resign. Have they being able to gain employment?
Also what happened to the pilots who were forced to resign. Have they being able to gain employment?