The Health and Safety brigade would just love another opportunity to make flying even more inconvenient. ECAM systems are fully redundant so I fail to see how a laptop could have caused such a problem. And if so, why now after Trillions of flight hours without incident. Is there any hard data whatsoever to support this allegation or is it simply more wild speculation from a narrow minded and mean spirited Australian media?
on my last QF longhaul flight I was forbidden - by decree from the flight deck - to form a 'congregation' around the toilets
Like most things wondrous and wonderful, this started in the US. Australia does seem to drift along in that direction. Australian authorities tend to be of the "Mummy knows best" school, with a narrow minded mean spiritedness superimposed. A direction the UK is also taking. The days of self responsibility and responsibility towards ones community, without State supervision, appear to have been lost.
Regarding Emirates showers etc., I imagine that a great deal of common sense and restraint will be exhibited by both Company and premium passengers.
The DVT issue poses a legal dilemna for lines. The advisories were, essentially introduced by way of a legal disclaimer. Should they now introduce regulations prohibiting passengers from walking around, they will again open themselves up to litigation from DVT incidents.
Again, why can't simple common sense prevail? When seated, always loosely fasten the seat belt, when not, do what you have to do then get back to your seat and buckle up ASAP? There are always extremists on both sides of these arguements who wish to impose a narrow minded viewpoint?
Last edited by philipat : 9th October 2008 at 11:32.
Reason: Typos
As for the laptop, it depends...if the laptop user turned wireless internet on, then it would start emitting signals and they can interfere with radio equipment. If you dont believe it, put a wireless modem or mobile phone next to a working radio and see what happens to the radio signals.
It's true ! I could never understand why my radio didn't work in my 'home office' until the other day, when for the first time I already had the radio switched on as I started my laptop - the radio became unuseable as my laptop 'locked on' to the radio modem on the other side of the room
Very much doubt if that could affect the F.deck tho' ? Haven't "they" thought about that ? Don't believe the mobile phone thing, either, but anything that persuades people using them in public gets my vote, so keep up the myth.
Doesn't need electronics - had a 707 with heading reference problems once, found a tape recorder, you know, those things with big reels of tape that wind from one to the other, 'bout the size of an old Remington desktop typewriter ( remember ! ) lodged in the hat rack - where the compass fluxgate sensors were ! The permanent magnets in the innards were sending the compass bananas. Big notice telling passengers not to do that gleefully ignored. Wot's new.
I wish that media types would pause, even for a few seconds, to apply the most basic thinking.
200m in 20 seconds, wow that must have been a wild ride and followed so soon by a second plunge of 122m in 16 seconds.
Point of posting? I know the press lurk here and perhaps, just perhaps, one of them might have a pang of guilt and vow to apply some basic diligence to what they write in the future.....nah....
The maneuver as described could have been quite mild (descending about 30ft/s, if those figures are accurate), but with sufficient acceleration (at the pushover) to cause a very unpleasant upset to people and objects that were not restrained in the cabin.
Aside from that, I'm curious why it isn't mandatory to have your belt fastened at all times - I'm 6'3", and uncomfortable in most aeroplanes, but I still leave it on because I know these things can happen, and the belt doesn't bother me at all.
And for those SLF who think seatbelts are not for them, and it will never happen to them - I think someone should seriously consider publishing the pictures of this cabin ( whoever has them ) - how many times have I been in the cabin, and even on the approach heard the oh so familiar click of a unbuckling seatbelt.
As a previous p-poster had also mentioned, "some" / "a few" cabin crew regretably seem more concerned with service interuptions inflight if I switch on the seatbelt signs - I always ask for the nbr1 to confirm all pax strapped in and give them a quick briefing in case I need them to strap in too.....
not sure what your point is. The data is taken directly from the ATSB statement (see post 159 for full text), but here is the relevant bit:
While the full interpretation and analysis of the recorded data will take some time, preliminary review of the data indicates that after the aircraft climbed about 200 feet from its cruising level of 37,000 feet, the aircraft then pitched nose-down and descended about 650 feet in about 20 seconds, before returning to the cruising level. This was closely followed by a further nose-down pitch where the aircraft descended about 400 feet in about 16 seconds before returning once again to the cruising level. Detailed review and analysis of FDR data is ongoing to assist in identifying the reasons for the events.
So about 1,950fpm and then 1,500fpm. Pretty hairy obviously, but perfectly possible. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm not clear what you're suggesting is wrong with the report.
Phillipat
I think you are missing the point. It is not the rate of descent which is capable of causing weightlessness / negative g , it is the rate at which the aircraft pitches down.
As for the laptop, it depends...if the laptop user turned wireless internet on, then it would start emitting signals and they can interfere with radio equipment. If you dont believe it, put a wireless modem or mobile phone next to a working radio and see what happens to the radio signals.
Laptops and cellular phones interfering with the plane radio equipment is all BS. When an airplane flies close to a thunderstorm, it receives thousands times stronger interfering radio waves from lightning but nothing happens. How many times aircraft sustained direct lightning hits without much problem at all. And this is really powerful radio and electrical disturbance.
It's not too hard to play around in a spreadsheet to calculate possible trajectories that fit the known facts. Just speculation, but for example:
Assume the plane starts off climbing at about 2000fpm after the initial reported uncommanded climb.
If it then pulls -0.6G for a full 2 seconds, then regular 1G (now descending at ~4000fpm) for 4 seconds while the flight crew figure out what's going on, then pulls 1.2G for 11 seconds to level out. This results in a descent of around 680ft in 17 seconds from the point where it pushes over.
-0.6G for 2 seconds isn't going to be too pleasant in the back. It can't be much more negative G than this or much longer than this, or you can't limit the descent to around 650ft. But from the reports of people pinned to the ceiling, it probably can't be a lot less time than this either.
I'm not trying to claim this is what happened or even realistic, and I ignored how much speed you'd have lost in the climb, then gained in the dive. But it illustrates the sort of trajectory that loses 650 ft in 20 seconds that matches the described effects on the PAX.
I remember 1 case of DVT that made it to the media a few years ago, but there is regular reports on CAT hurting passengers .
Take a risk assesment and decide for yourself!
Reading the medical research will give you figures of total 2million DVTs per year (US), causing 200k deaths, along with estimates that half of those are flight-related. Moreover, this isn't just someone spotting a correlation - the causation is experimentally proven (hypobaric chamber experiments).
Studies have shown 3-5% chance of a clot after air travel - most of those will be asymptomatic (maybe 95%), and most of those will probably do no harm. However, even some asymptomatic clots lead to pulmonary embolism, which has significant mortality rate, and all of them are potentially harmful.
Even if 95% of the clots do no harm, that's still about a 1 in 400 chance of injury from DVT on a flight - in my assessment I don't think the CAT figres come out that high.
I agreee with doing your own risk assessment - but beware of doing it based on number of media reports you remember. Beware of stats as well (including those above - to do it properly read the research).
Remember, CAT (or turbulence in general) is often cited as the leading cause of in-flight injuries (presumably the definition excludes crashing...) - but DVT related injuries may be flight-caused but will not show up in-flight, so they won't even be considered.
I assume that the G's associated with this manuever are known from the DFDR as well (that would have been more interesting to me had they released them). Although, I suspect that the G's from the DFDR only reflect a specific aircraft loacation and would have to be extrapolated to the aft cabin passengers.
I'm trying to get a feel for this and I suspect that it might be like riding a roller coaster where some dude stands up to wave his arms and is ejected, only in this case the passenger ends up hitting the ceiling panels. The passengers still buckled up would feel it in the pit of their stomach.
Seems like many causative possibilities are still open including commanded (either via cockpit or computer) as well as uncommanded (something breaks or a servo sticks)
dear modest pilot: thank you for that info...the only QANTAS pilot I know of is John Travolta...and I'm sure everyone at QANTAS is better than him
Dear sevenstrokeroll,
Please be a little less disparaging in future. Mr Travolta is an extremely competent pilot. When I did a Gulfstream conversion course, his handling of an extremely obscure problem in his personal G2, a total electrical & coms failure due to a multiple TR drop off over NY, was quoted as a model of intelligent fault finding of a then unknown technical complication, since dealt with by Gulfstream.
He owns, is endorsed on, and regularly flies his own 707, and I would be totally confident to fly with him, and possibly learn from him.
You don't have to be ATR to understand (although, I do admit it usually does help a little.)
Linear Mode
