paweas

Hi Peter just recieved the book this morning great read spent all day in bed reading lol compliments to you and you wife..

Seems to me from reading that the Mighty BA seemed almost embarrased that one of their aircraft could be involved in an accident and decided to attempt to sweep this under the carpet publicly, i was shocked at the treatment you recieved.I remember that day clearly i spent hours watching on sky news.. first thought came to mind was "immpossible" how that aircraft managed to remain almost intact was stunning,the more i read the more i was amazed by the totaly brilliant job you and you crew did that day.Wish you well for the future seems airlines these days care little for their staff or indeed passengers only the almighty dollar.

Heliport

Yeah, hardly any media coverage of the incident.

paweas

My dear Heliport If you'd bothered to read the book you would realize that BA went to great lengths to avoid all publicity of the accident and the events surrounding it regardless of the media coverage.Peter was told not to make any statement to the press despite some of the nonsense that was printed about him.Coupled with the fact that Peter's working life became intolerable after the event with nasty rumours circulating in-house doesnt take a genius to conclude that BA indeed wanted this sweeped under the carpet also notable was the fact that RR and Boeing didnt say too much about the event either.........

TIMA9X

I have to agree with this statement, I have read the book as well, and have followed this thread since it started. It is painfully clear when coupling what was said on this thread, in the British media and the silence from BA publicly seemed to have left Peter & Maria dangling on a hook with the media circling around looking for an angle that may sell newspapers! What has been said time and time again on this thread 30 seconds is not long to dot all the iii's & cross the ttt's but still it was rumoured that Pete froze which is clearly not the case at all.

Yep it is, and it didn't take too long to find out that Peter was a dedicated 777 Captain who was loyal to BA, his company that employed him for 20 years, he took the advice from the appropriate departments no questions asked way before he decided to write his book. As time went by he realised he needed BA to assist him with a short statement to clear up what amounted to become an unbearable set of rumours that lead to PB taking VR. We can all offer our personal views whether Pete should have or shouldn't have taken VR but at the end of the day none of us really knew what Pete was feeling except of course Pete himself as well as the impact on his family.

I don't think Pete and Maria ever said a bad word in public about BA throughout this ordeal so when he announced he was writing a book I thought "well here goes, he is going to dump on them. As it turns out he didn't but together with his wife wrote a book that really is a wake up call to the industry. I learned a lot from reading it as I too have three kids of a similar age as the Birkills. I think there is something for everyone in its contents.

Biggles78

Why hasn't Branson given you a call? After all he has offer Sully a job if he wants one and Sully had an eternity compared to your situation. This is just DUMB!!

TIMA9X

I think there are many pilots who would agree with this statement, I feel that if Pete was involved in the same situation but lived in another country things would be different for him today. It appears that the British press have claimed another victim in its haste to get a story that sells papers. When it could not get what it wanted, the press continued with its own version of the facts without regard for the Birkill family forcing BA to possibly make decisions to protect itself even when the final report was far from public knowledge.

It is my view, a simple statement along these lines from BA at the time protecting its staff should have solved this part of the BA038 aftermath for the Birkills.

It really isn't rocket science for a well established airline such as BA..

bearfoil

I think Pete got it right. But Sully said two words post-goose.

"My airplane". Doesn't, shouldn't matter, but it does to the numpties.

Hats off to a gentleman pilot, Captain B.

bear

DozyWannabe

Bearfoil, saying "I have control" at the point things started to go wrong would likely have caused the FO (as PF) to relinquish the primary flight controls - the precise opposite of what Capt. Burkill was after. The infinitessimal issue that got blown up out of any kind of proportion was that the initial evacuate transmission either did not work or was not heard - it's not clear which, nor is it ever likely to be.

The scandal of the Burkills' treatment stems from the fact that BA issued the crew a blanket order not to talk to the press, but (and I mean this as no criticism of the FO) the press managed to pressure a member of the FO's family to talk him into providing an exclusive, whereas Capt. Burkill stuck by his instructions, causing the press to dig up any information they could get their hands on - most of it not relevant, a little of it not particularly flattering.

BA's public relations department was essentially caught on the hop by this accident - they said they'd handle the press and then clammed up. The combination of Capt. Burkill's statement which, like Sullenberger's, praised the whole crew and didn't aggrandise his own efforts - along with sticking to orders about not talking to the press while the FO did - gave rise to the false narrative that Capt. Burkill "froze" - whether this was an act of spite by the press or simple chinese whispers we're also unlikely to ever know.

bearfoil

DozyWannabe

Could not be in more agreement. Thought I was clear. My bad.

Biggles78

Attempted post number 2.
Bearfoil, you may have missed it in the previous 164 pages, 3,200+ replies, but Peter said it was BA training to leave the FO flying and that left the Captain to sort out the problem. In the few seconds that this took and for the flap retract decision and action, this would have left precious little time for Peter to "My airplaine", get his hand in and complete what remained of the flight. Therefore, Peter made TWO critical decision in that very short time from that resulted in the best possible outcome in the circumstances.

One was to reduce the flap setting and two was to leave John (who had the feel of the aircraft) to complete the landing. I am sure if the FO had low time on type then Peter may indeed have taken flying control but as he had also stated he was happy with John at the controls. It must have been difficult for him to leave someone else to finish the landing (or it may just be the command control freak in me) but that decision most likely saved lives.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is not only did Peter's decisions that day directly save all the lives of passengers and crew aboard his aircraft but is also indirectly affected the spouses, children, grandchildren, extended family, friends, work colleagues etc etc who have not had to go through the grieving process.

I hope the above brings some comfort to Peter when the days do not seem so good.

bearfoil

Biggles78

I tried to explain to Dozywannabe, perhaps I was too brief.

I agree 100 percent. That means I think you are correct in everything you say.

1. I acknowledge the Captain's skill, and have throughout this thread.

2. Keeping the yoke in John's capable hands and up to the second concentration was of course indicated.

3. I wish him well and have even made inquiries on his behalf.

4. How do you react to those who actually disagree with you? (This is rhetorical in nature and does not require a response, really).

5. The only thing left unsettled about 038 is the fuel, imo.

Tailwinds and strong coffee my friend.

bear

DozyWannabe

Bearfoil:

Am I right in thinking that by "my airplane" you actually meant taking responsibility for those on it? I should be at least a little apologetic if so, because I misread it as the US version of the "I have control" callout. So apologies.

For those who haven't read the book, it begins with an eye-opening account of Capt. Burkill's thought processes, elaborated on later, that explain what was going through his mind and why he made the decisions he made. The fact that these thought processes take up several pages, yet the incident left him with a few seconds to think through and make those decisions is a testament to just how level-headed one has to be to pull a result like that out of your hat, and it's something we can all aspire to. But Capt. Burkill relates events just so, and still does not claim to have done anything special.

Peter, my hat is duly doffed - and as I said before, I hope things improve for you and your family from this point on. The hat remains doffed for the first officer and the rest of the crew on the flight - whose behaviour appears to have been no less exemplary.

infrequentflyer789

It's hard watching people misunderstanding that they are actually agreeing with each other...

At the risk of confusing things still futher, I don't think that was the bit of Bearfoils post that you misread.

I read the "my airplane" as referring exactly to the taking of control, with the point being that in the eyes of many those two words and the fact that Sully "took control" made him a hero, and the fact that Peter didn't... well, many people don't get it. That simple impression has stuck regardless of whether or not taking control was the right decision.


Just to be absolutely clear - we are all in agreement that Peter did the right thing by not taking control, analyzing the situation, and moving the flaps. Those actions probably saved many lives. Sadly, we lost most tabloid readers at "analyzing" and if they get as far as "flaps" they are probably thinkng of the things you slam down over your oversized luggage in the overheads.

No, it's not fair or just, but the court of media and public opinion rarely is.

bearfoil

infrequentflyer789

Thank You. That was indeed my point. I thought Sullenberger made the right call, in the end, He and Skiles know exactly. It is odd that if Captain Burkill had done the same as Sullenberger, the wrong thing, he'd have none of the 'flap', assuming a good result. Truth be told, Sullenberger, of the two Captains, had the (far) easier challenge.

Misfortune and misunderstanding sell Press, and are fertile fields for outrageous gossip.

The Outcome must not be misunderstood: Captain Burkill performed with great skill and crisis management, and was responsible for an excellent outcome.

I know that, you know that, the ones questioning the facts aren't qualified to decide.

DozyWannabe

I understand what you're getting at, but I wouldn't go that far. Both scenarios are pretty much the dictionary definition of "fresh underwear time". I think in terms of the media response, Capt. Sullenberger was luckier in that it's pretty easy to explain to a layman exactly what he had to do, whereas Capt. Burkill's situation was more complicated in terms of thought process and explanation.

A lot of people aren't aware that the Captain can still be in command while not personally manipulating the primary flight controls. Still fewer are aware that a Captain can sometimes be more effective in an emergency situation when he is not the handling pilot - UA232 was a major case in point, and this has now been joined by BA038.

[EDIT : I realise that strictly speaking, with UA232 Capt. Haynes was handling the primary flight controls, but because they were next to useless with the hydraulics gone, Capt. Fitch was effectively the handling pilot, manipulating the throttles.]

bearfoil

Hmm. Briefly, I will say you are not wrong, however, you miss my point. Taken as a whole, Sullenberger was a great deal luckier and was treated like an apostle after the fact. Taken as a whole, the outcomes were both satisfying. In a way you prove my point. It is a long discussion that could end with either verdict, so I will simply join your accolade to the BA pilots and crew. Don't eat the chicken. Go with the Lamb.

bear

GK430

The whole comparison with BA038 and the US Air 1549 is what in my mind has left PB the 'loser' - the very undeserving pilot who for the last two plus years has been left with such an uncertain future.
The 777 crew confronted by what? Was the word Rollback such a familiar aeronautical term that the Media and general public could grasp? Hardly, and they were not going to get the official explanation there and then - investigations take time, but aren't so many keen to have their speculative say!
Two years down the line the Official Report is published but in the meantime the world seemingly wants to villify someone. The AAIB are thorough and time should not be their constraint, but why could B.A. not have stood up and be seen to be totally supportive?

Sullenberger - Birdstrike, so obvious and plain for all to see, let alone for the crew who were not left in any doubt as to what had just occurred.

From a lay perspective, the B.A. crew had to re-assess their actions leading up to the loss of thrust and realising that their actions had been text book and nothing missed, now try to analyse how to make the best of the situation - with so few seconds remaining.

So the crew of the US Air are instant heroes because we could all grasp what had happened and because PB retained his professional discipline and adhered to all that was demanded of him the world made its impatient judgement.

More than words are now needed to show the appreciation that is long overdue.

Jabawocky

YES

BA should be lobbied by you, your unions the media etc to publically squash the ill truths and make a generous offer to re-employ the pilot with all entitlements.

If I was Willie Walsh, I would have not let management accept his VR application, rather had him promoted instead.

The facts were there, and after reading PB's book it seems quite clear, BA stuck its head in the sand and refused to correct its ways for the sake of "losing face". A concept not well iked in aviation.

Unless the guy is a complete ....the BA folk among you should lobby the company to fix its wrong doings.

Lets face it, the actions of both the crew saved BA from a massive disaster, one that would have cost many times more than the one they had. They deserve a massive bonus....one would think.

J

wiggy

With all the arguments around here as to who was the "best pilot", (a lot of it seemingly coming from non-pilots) this thread is turning into X-Factor or some other celebrity game. Well here, thankfully we don't get a vote.

Firstly PB and Sully were both presented with a heap of c**p at a critical stage of flight.

Why? Do you think think in the wash up he said: "Man, I was really lucky only to fly through a flock of Geese, I'm really glad I didn't have a double engine roll back on Final"

IMHO Sullenberger's decision relatively early on to consider the Hudson as an option - and ultimately decide to use it, was not down to luck, it was decision making of the highest order. The survival of his passengers and crew was not down to him being "luckier" than PB.

(but yes, PB was badly let down by BA, Sully's achievements were rightly recognised.)

Bronx

Just like you're entitled to the financial advisors you pay to give you tax planning advice.
And the doctors who give you medical advice.
And any expert whose paid to give you expert advice.