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Old 5th Sep 2008, 14:34   #1481 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Wings1011

Quote:
Due to engineer performing their daily check and pulling this c/b to be able to check the strobe lights working on GND. A Std procedure since decades on the type among engineers worldwide.
I find this very strange, since we never pulled that breaker out during daily checks on our fleet. I worked with MD-80s and DC-9s for nearly ten years and never pulled the mentioned CB, ever. As I recall, on our fleet anyway, you could turn the strobes on turning a switch on the right hand side of the glareshield (it is possible I remember wrong, it's been a couple of years since I've been inside an MD).

Second thing is, you said they had reported thrust rating problems. Have I missed something? It is possible that I have missed such a piece after reading this thread through.
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 16:14   #1482 (permalink)
 
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Wings 1011,
Thank you for your invaluable insight.
Quote:
The famous C/B L/H GND CTRL RLY also does controll the take off warnig system of the MD80 aircraft that ofcourse means if it is pulled the take off warning system will NOT work.
The inference here is that a successful TOCW check was never performed during pre-flight.I am guessing that the FIRST OFFICER performs the cockpit set-up but both pilots must check everything before taking to the skies.If they dont and only work according to SOP Areas of responsibility,they are like lambs to the slaughter.A skipper must advance his thrust levers and check that warning.He must check his consummables.He must know that the fire bottles are working .The FIRST OFFICER may be highly competent but you never abrogate responsibility.Areas of responsibility are not mutually exclusive.I can stray into his and he can stray into mine.I have no problem whatsoever with a FIRST OFFICER checking me.In fact if he doesnt,it worries me.One pilot can miss a pulled c/b or a system check,but two?Never ever let a SOP hamstring you.When you're on fire off the end of the runway,its no use saying "I was following SOP's.He was supposed to check it"

Last edited by Rananim; 5th Sep 2008 at 22:44.
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 18:04   #1483 (permalink)
 
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Newcomers to the thread should take the time to read all of it. This scenario was proposed as early as thread 507 by sevenstrokeroll and elaborated on by others, myself included, shortly afterwards. A disabled T/O config warning plus poor checklist discipline, leading to a takeoff without slat/flap, is unfortunately the most likely scenario for this sad accident
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 19:02   #1484 (permalink)
 
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strobe light check

Regarding check of exteriour lights (strobe lights) by pulling the mentioned cirquitbraker is more or less the only easy way to verify if they are working depending of aircraft setup-Some of the aircrafts have modified the system so by just selecting the strobe switch on F/O glareshield lighting pnl it does come on. But basicly all of them I have seen during the years aircraft must be in FLT mode to get the strobe to come on, thereby engineers pulling it. Just for info our company have just the last 6 months filed no less than 6 official complains to two different maintenance providers operating in Spain for forgetting to reset C/B after carried out work on aircraft. That is then probably only a fractional of the actual ammount it has been forgotten by maintenance.
Normally it is just resettet and not mentioned to anyone but since the incident and the knowlegde of the magnitude it potentially could have it have been started to be reported when found C/B in out position when entering the aircraft.

Regards L1011
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 19:06   #1485 (permalink)
 
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777fly - I was the first to mention this possibility at thread #300...
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 19:17   #1486 (permalink)
 
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"As I recall, on our fleet anyway, you could turn the strobes on turning a switch on the right hand side of the glareshield (it is possible I remember wrong, it's been a couple of years since I've been inside an MD)."

No you can't Nelli. (Well,not on our MD's anyway) Strobes on the MD only work in the air,even with the switch on.

Wings1011; I' ve got 12 years on the MD.....good post

MDD
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 19:19   #1487 (permalink)
 
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Not rated on the MD80-series, but Im sure there is a flap-position-indicator available for the guys upfront?

If so, why did they not use it? (rush? or another failure on top?)

If not so, designflaw.
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 19:35   #1488 (permalink)

 
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hambleoldboy

you mentioned a tech fault regarding takeoff warning system

I mentioned that the failure path with the huge item of RAT PROBE being heated on the ground as a symptom of what was wrong...around post 670.

additional information concerning the strobe lights was brought out, also part of the equation.

I was quite a bit more specific
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 19:46   #1489 (permalink)
 
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Jeez guys, who cares who was first!?

Wings1011 brilliant post, well written and outright scary

We now have thanks to many contributions A likely scenario and a lesson to be learned if not several
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 20:02   #1490 (permalink)
 
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Just a couple of ideas-----
I have a few thousand hours in the MD-88, line check pilot for a famous southern US airline. We had a procedure where we used circuit breakers as switches. Airplane on ground for more than 3 hours or overnight we pulled "red collared" CBs. Other breakers were "yellow collared" to be pulled in non-normal situations.
Stay with me here:

Out loud say the word "SHOP:


OK, spell it out loud: S- H- O- P


OK, Out loud

What do you do when you come to a red light??




Most answer STOP!!!

You have just been programmed----
Now
We had a crew take off from a famous downtown Washington, DC airport in a 737-800 and on the first callout after gear up, called for flaps 1, VNAV.
Guess where the flaps were?
Two times, the crew responded properly to the checklist challenge
FLAPS ---- 5,5 and a green light
Crew was "programmed" for the response and the previous crew had accidentally pulled the yellow collared CB for the take off warning system. it was early morning and the offending CB was not noticed.
In almost 29,000 hours of flying, there is not much I haven't seen. When any routine is interrupted, mistakes creep in. Most of the time we are simply lucky and catch our mistakes before they catch us.
Again at the previous airline, we had a procedure that required a complete before start checklist any time maintainance had been performed on the aircraft.
Also, the importance of "flows" can't be minimized.
Our flows in the MD-88 were extensive-but the 88 was a very hands-on busy cockpit. With a proper flow, if one thing is in place, then everything is in place.
End result--I'm hoping the crew is found faultless and some bizarre mechanical failure is to blame
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 20:05   #1491 (permalink)
 
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actually the test was "What do you do when you come to a green light?
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 20:07   #1492 (permalink)

 
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Here's the switch. Do you need to be in the air or not? Seems that some operators may have modded the logic.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 20:36   #1493 (permalink)
 
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Inquiry silent on report Spanair MD-82 was misconfigured

Source Air Transport Intelligence:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...onfigured.html


Green-dot
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 20:44   #1494 (permalink)
 
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For those in the know:

How many "possitions" does the Ground Control Relay has?

If you "find it in the off possition", could it just have tripped itself? (I.e. is it suppossed to trip under shortcuts or other electrical malfunctions?) Or is it totally neccessary that someone physically puts it in that possition (knowingly or inadvertenly)?

Also, is it in the pilot's mandatory checklist to check that all the circuit breakers (except those turned off for delayed maintenance) are on?

And last: Do manufacturers keep a knowledge base that could be downloaded to a laptop where a technician could type: "probe heater turned on while on ground" and get an answer such as: "check WOW sensor opened or closed", "check gnd relay CB set or out"? Shouldn't it exist?

Two more survivors have been discharged from the hospitals. Only one remains in intensive care in very serious condition.

Last edited by justme69; 5th Sep 2008 at 22:08.
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 21:40   #1495 (permalink)
 
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Justme69, thankyou for all your translations.

The Gnd control relay is a circuit breaker= "on" or "off", popped or in

Forget, some operators may have done that,Idunno. My outfit has not. Strobe's only flashing when nose' s off the ground. And good that is. Always irritates me sitting behind a Boeing lining up at night with those stupid strobes on!
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 22:13   #1496 (permalink)
 
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Do any of these airliners have hi-lift and flying control position indicators fitted?
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 22:42   #1497 (permalink)
 
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R2-5......c/b L/h Gnd Ctrl Rly

@wings1011/L1011

Storia lunga di qualcosa?

here you may retrieve some add on`s or supplements in this issue posted by pichu17
#708 Rat,art,atr
#812 Rat probe heater fail
#856 Especulation
#1249 wow
#1272 The same relay, the R2-5

Mosca alta?
For sure
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Old 5th Sep 2008, 22:49   #1498 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Two times, the crew responded properly to the checklist challenge
FLAPS ---- 5,5 and a green light
As mentioned earlier, in one of Delta's DFW crashes the FO responded "Fifteen, fifteen, green light" although the flaps were up for takeoff:

http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-dl1141.shtml

The DL 1141 crew were distracted by a flight attendant chatting in the cockpit and were famously discussing F/A dating habits, mixed drinks and even whether a certain "community organizer" from Chicago was suitable to be President:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmCtJhCPEeQ

Quote:
When I flew the MD83 one of our setup procedures was to advance the thrust levers prior to engine start and test the CAWS (Central Aural Warning System).
Back in the day... Yep, in the old days you rang every bell and checked every light, pushed all the instrument transfer switches, even ran the trim all the way through in both directions. As you know, in modern Boeings and Airbuses you do little of this, we don't even check fire warnings, it's a maintenance function. I guess you could push up a throttle before start these days but you'd trip off the utility busses and get a call from the back. Some of these old checks were busy work for the FE and we've gradually gone to a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" streamlined preflight.

Quote:
We had a procedure where we used circuit breakers as switches. Airplane on ground for more than 3 hours or overnight we pulled "red collared" CBs. Other breakers were "yellow collared" to be pulled in non-normal situations.
The "circuit breakers as switches" has fallen out of favor with many operators as have things like closing the valve on the 02 bottle every night due to the possiblity of inducing a problem that is spring loaded to cause a mishap if the c/b or valve is not repositioned before flight.

So, was the MAD mishap due to a distracted crew with taking off with flaps up and no takeoff warning horn? I think it's looking like a very real possibility.
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Old 6th Sep 2008, 00:24   #1499 (permalink)
 
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Thumbs up Excess complacency

Good discussion, thanks for sharing. I am a PPL, but an anesthesiologist in real life. Most of our "disasters" are similar to this: violations of the "sterile cockpit" rule, excessive chitchat, and inattention to boring but very basic safety details. Thanks !
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Old 6th Sep 2008, 00:28   #1500 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Storia lunga

For GP7280-POC

I initially did write my first post much more detailed and it took me some time to write it, but it did disappear in the cyberworld somewere when posting it. Therefore the next one I wrote were much shorter. Thats why I called it a long story shorter.....
Im sorry to have repeated some already printed notification-but I felt my story could clearify and maybe help others in the future

Regards

L1011

Last edited by wings1011; 6th Sep 2008 at 01:01.
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