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Spanair accident at Madrid

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Spanair accident at Madrid

Old 3rd Sep 2008, 22:37
  #1441 (permalink)  
 
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GPWS and flaps

Maybe I'm wrong here but, if the ground/air-logic would have been in air-mode, and therefor they didn't get a config-warning, wouldn't the GPWS still be shouting 'TOO LOW FLAPS' (aircraft 'airborne' with gear down but no landing-flaps set)?
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 22:40
  #1442 (permalink)  
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It seems to me the signs have been pointing pretty obviously to a flapless take-off since the earliest, but some were getting hung up on stalling engines and alleged engine fires, which were secondary factors, not primary. A very sobering set of pictures- awful to think 160 odd people were left mangled in that wreckage. One must spare a thought for the rescuers who had to trawl through it desperately looking for signs of life and how deeply this sort of thing must affect any human. I don't know how they can do it.
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 22:43
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False Reporting

Can we rely upon the Wall Street Journal publishing an accurate report not available from a formal source?
If a reporter submitted a story that says the flight recorders revealed certain information and it turns out that that is false, the reporter should be fired.
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Old 3rd Sep 2008, 23:17
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Originally Posted by Smilin_Ed
If a reporter submitted a story that says the flight recorders revealed certain information and it turns out that that is false, the reporter should be fired.
Which is why they don't write that. They write things like "sources... say... the flight recorders revealed". As long as a source did say that, you can get away with a lot, allegedly.

And sources can of course be "somone on the internet" these days...
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 00:19
  #1445 (permalink)  
 
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Air/Ground shift sensor

On the MD80 (and all DC9's) the aircraft shifts to air mode with nose strut extension.

In fact, just the other day we had a MD80 that had several strange symptoms (inappropriate probes being heated, ART not arming, etc.) and when I performed the external preflight the nose strut was overserviced to the point the scissors was almost completely extended. Therefore the aircraft thought it was in the air and activated some systems not on the main gear switch.

It would be difficult to load a MD80 aft enough to get the nose light with a 160 seat configuration, when I flew charter MD80's we were almost always nose heavy if we had anything besides the aft cargo bin loaded.

doodah
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 02:59
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One must spare a thought for the rescuers who had to trawl through it desperately looking for signs of life and how deeply this sort of thing must affect any human. I don't know how they can do it.
I don't know how it is handled in Spain. In Germany firefighters, paramedics, policemen and other rescuers learned (and frequently repeat) how to handle big crash or crime scenes and there is a general structure of how to organize themselves and their work.
So training is the first step not to feel helpless and lost, everyone knows his duties and has to concentrate on that.

The uniform provides some protection because it is not "you", the human beeing, it is the firemen, the paramedic, "your function" which takes part in that scene. And don't forget that no one fights alone, you are sourrounded by a team of other specialists.

Rescuers should be taken out of the scene early, "fresh" collegues should send in frequently. That was one of the biggest problems of 9/11 when NYFD could not change folks in time, they just lost so much firefighters...

Nevertheless there also is a lot of general education regarding psychic reactions before you start working as rescuer, everyone gets instructed once again after returning from the crash scene. Specialists take the rescuers immediately to a quiet place without public or media, but to eat and drink something, and to talk about what happens. Again everyone is instructed what could happen to him, what feelings, thoughts and dreams could occur. They were told that everything is a quite normal reaction to an absolut unnatural experience.

There are always psychologists who can be contacted 24/7 on the following days, everyone is invited not to hesitate to contact them, and some moore meetings for every rescue team take place in the followings days. People can talk about their thinking, how they feel, the "instructors" also check who needs special assistance.

From experience we know that some people, confronted with the most horrible scenes, do not develop any kind of problems, whereas other ones encounter heavy disturbance even if they had easy jobs obviously.

Last edited by Flyer94; 4th Sep 2008 at 04:02.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 03:36
  #1447 (permalink)  
 
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And now that the WSJ dared to "print" such an article, all the press in Spain is quoting them adding their own little "twists" to the story to make it fit better a "mechanical" (electrical) malfunction and downplay the pilots (potentially) forgetting to set wing configuration correctly for take-off.

So it's now "An electrical malfunction caused the accident".

I have the gut feeling that a lot of what's been said in the press lately originates here, distorted to their own agendas, and not the other way around ...

Many even point to stuff like "according to the WSJ, the ailerons didn't deploy because of an electrical malfunction..."

How horribly can the "truth" be distorted? (And in this case, it's not even the truth ... it's just some potential truth given by the WSJ article).

Of course, accidents like this, where there is not a single major cause such as a big explosion, must usually have more than "one cause".

If the scenario is "bad wing configuration by the pilots", usually there is another minor cause(s) on why they didn't notice on time or why they weren't able to recover on time. This secondary minor cause can be anything in this case. From a blown warning horn (unlikely), to having the alarms disconnected on purpose by the crew, to having them inavertedly disconnected by maintenance technicians, to having any other malfunction on the plane that made them not go-off (ground sensors, front geat maintenance, etc).

But that's, obviously, something nobody should rely on. Anything electrical can break at any time. 99% of the cause of an accident like that (and I'm not saying the Spanair one was, this is just theoretical) would be the failure of both pilots to check and double check, as they are required to do, the main two or three configuration parameters vitals to achieving take-off.

As many have pointed out here, until humans are removed from that process, these kind of accidents WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. Because no matter how many alarms, etc, one designs, they can always be bypassed (disconnected or even ignored) by the human part of the equation. They can also malfunction and the malfunction be ignored, MEL, or just not noticed. Also, they could happen to fail exactly at the time they were needed (nothing sensible can be done in that case).

And as someone mentioned before, we have all gone through situations where we could've sworn over our dead bodies that we did something we simply forgot to do.

It's "nobody's fault". It happens to everyone. Obviously nobody is going to blame you for forgetting to flip a switch once in 20 years. But hopefully, you are not working on a nuclear plant and your mistake can be corrected on time if everybody else is alert.

We can make extremely redundant warning systems that will make these accidents unlikely. But once, every say 30 years, someone will find a way to (not fully aware, of course) try to complete a take-off with the wrong wing configuration one way or another ... Think Chernobyl.

Last edited by justme69; 4th Sep 2008 at 05:46.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 07:05
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Re post No. 1458 (new set of pictures)

The creek on pic No.8 looks pretty deep so it could be both the life saviour and killer for those unconscious...
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 08:13
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justme69, with all due respect for the excellent job you are doing providing us with diligent translation of Spanish press reports, I have following remarks:

You have begun by saying that you have no aviation background and you are only translating what the Spanish media reports about the accident but eventually you ended up inserting your personal evaluations of what is “likely” and what is “unlikely” and what is “highly unlikely” into your translations and making pretty bold statements like "99% of the cause of an accident like that.. [].. would be the failure of both pilots to check and double check..[]..the main two or three configuration parameters vitals to achieving take-off" and “until humans are removed from that process, these kind of accidents WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN” though making it look like it is not you who is saying this but “As many have pointed out here” (I’ve been reading this thread from post No.1 and never saw anybody implying that), all of which finally culminated in a bringing in Chernobyl as a comparison, which is not quite relevant, to say the least (I'd been living in Kiev, a city some 100 km odd from Chernobyl so we know all there is to know about that tragedy, trust me on my word).

It would be perfectly OK since many folks here are making statements and evaluations without having “aviation background” behind them had it not been for the fact that you have been viewed here as the valuable first-hand renderer of Spanish media reports, which are not accessible to most of us here since few here know English and Spanish equally good as you do. So my perception of your posts is now sort of messed up because I now have difficulty telling “media words” from “justme69’s words” (the former at least being an attempt to look authoritative ‘coz they cite some insider sources close to the investigation and the latter just being a personal opinion of a person who “is not a pilot, not a traffic controller, not an aviation engineer” as you said yourself in the beginning).


Again, with all due respect and thanks for your huge effort to provide us with accurate translation of the Spanish media reports.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 10:01
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Hi

I've seen landing gear marks at the right of he runway, in the ILS rwy 18R GP restricted area. After that, the plane smashed two small perimeter road fences and .... I couldn't see far away !.
I couldn't see also marks of a tail hit, but the tail cone was found in that area near the runway ( see or identify, maybe I can't identify ptroperly ).

But, I can remember that I've seen also photos here, related about what I'm speaking for.

And yes, in the CIAIAC web page there is only the reference of the accident, but in about fifteen days we'll have a preliminary report, they said.

BR
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 10:02
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The evolution of this case is typical of many aircraft incidents. Everybody is rushing to point fingers (Media in the first place) without letting the course of the investigation reach it's end.

It started with engine fire/explosion then with reversers and finally wrong take-off configuration.

It's understandable that everyone want answers, know. But, the pilots in this forum should know better how these things work. I know that I'm wrong assuming that everyone who writes in here is a professional pilot, but I tend to assume it is or at least has a profound knowledge about aviation subjects.

I believe this accident is going to give us even more surprises...


Check Six , krueger...
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 10:11
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Chinese Whispers!

Virgin Media have lifted the Wall streets journals story for their news website and are now saying that the FDR "confirms" that the flaps were not set!! Well glad they have cleared that one up for us!!!
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 11:05
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John Farley,

Thank you for your excellent reply

SevenStrokeRoll

Yes, I completed the shampoo checklist again. I also usually check the door at least twice.

TM
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 11:45
  #1454 (permalink)  
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Last edited by Rainboe; 14th Sep 2008 at 18:38.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 13:05
  #1455 (permalink)  
 
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Last year there was a similar incident, almost an accident as this one, at Lanzarote in Canary Islands with a MD-83 involved. Aircraft took off from Lanzarote and suddenly lost altitude, came close to the only highway on the island by 5-10 meters of the ground and finally got enough speed to climb. Would be a similarity in both cases due to a fail in Take off warning configuration system? should all MD´s world fleet be inspected and grounded meanwhile? it´s already been done in the past with other aircrafts.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 13:40
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saying the crash was because the takeoff warning systems wasn't working is not quite right.

it is whether or not the slats/flaps were set

if the system were broken and the pilots set the slats/flaps everything would be ok

teachme, above, checks his door lock twice before going to sleep.

pilots should check slats/flaps alot more.

anyone here ever read "thirty seconds over tokyo", or see the movie? B25 bombers, taking off from the carrier USS Hornet? The author of the book, ted lawson, FORGOT to set his flaps for takeoff...he was the only one of 16 bombers (which were never designed for carrier use) and his plane almost crashed.

this was in 1942.

when I was a boy of about 12, I read this book and even then I understood how important flaps were. (especially ironic, as lawson helped design the wing flaps for the b19 experimental bomber)
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 14:04
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First lawsuit, against Boeing:

Families sue Boeing over Madrid air crash (1st Lead)
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 15:09
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If the take off configuration warning works properly the crew will have taken action, ergo... although the AC were not correctly configured for TO is obvious, in my opinion, that the accident occurs because the CWAS failure, any other way the crew will abort TO.

Acc spanish media:
Video: La caja negra del JK 5022 demuestra que los pilotos chequearon el avión antes del despegue : Vídeos en ELPAÍS.com

Captain checked flaps / Slats : 'slats flaps ok'. Data obtained from CVR.

Investigation team are focusing on two different items:

1.- TR failure
2.- Flaps FAILURE

It seem GPWS and STALL warnings were audible, why not wrong TO config?

Last edited by LUALBA; 4th Sep 2008 at 15:34.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 15:11
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Green dot,

I'm not sure but from you rlast post regarding the reverser unlocked lights and ART fire lights I get the feeling you are trying to say that the ART fire light is bright but the TR unlock lights aren't. But here's the quote once more.....

1. The ARt fire light and the slat takeoff light are clearly visible in daylight....when you are looking at them. They are not the glow in the corner of your eye type of light like the reverser unlocked lights for example. In a situation of distress you would not be able to answer the sim instructor's question if the ART fired or not if you were the pilot flying (come to think of it maybo you can as the sim is always dark )
It says here that the ART and slat lights are visible when looking directly at them, but not as bright as the TR unlock lights which are much brighter and (might I add) more than twice as big.

If that is the same message you were trying to convey, my apologies.


Xander

EDIT: I feel the need to make myself clear about the "glow in the corner of your eye" term. By that I mean that they are bright enough to let you know they are illuminated even though you aren't looking at them. In other words pretty bright.
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Old 4th Sep 2008, 15:29
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Crew Checked Slats / Flaps for TO

Video: La caja negra del JK 5022 demuestra que los pilotos chequearon el avión antes del despegue : Vídeos en ELPAÍS.com

According this media, as data obtaneid from CVR crew did the before take off checklist was completed by the crew. The captain said: "'slats flaps ok."

Investigation team is dealing with two different options:

- TR failure
- Flaps FAILURE
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