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Old 25th Apr 2008, 21:26   #1 (permalink)
 
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BA pilots 'casually racist' - Independent

I hear there's more beating-up of BA in the Independent tomorrow (26 Apr) - claims of casual racism among pilots.

Brace, brace.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 21:44   #2 (permalink)
 
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It would be unfair to just pick on BA.

I'm afraid to say i hear it top to bottom where i work, like i never thought i would in this land. I'm ashamed to say i include myself if honest.

Perceived or not, i think most white British people feel forgoten in their own land. Changes in our culture we were never asked for, or were even consulted on.

Racism/tribalism call it what you will, history shows even recently that humans react if threatened in an almost biblicaly horrific way.

Rivers of blood? I don't think he was even close
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 22:44   #3 (permalink)
 
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The word racist gets bandied about to frequently now days. The reason all of us are here is because our ancestors were successful in breeding, our genes were "selected for". All the things that allowed them to be successful have been passed onto us, hard wired into our brain,things like their ability to interact socially in a small group (provides protection), ability to see and hear well, (helps us hunt and gather food), ability to physically defend our food resources, children and shelter....if our ancesters couldn't do that, we would simply be the ancesters of those who could. And here's the kicker....they were very good at recognising someone who was from a different group/tribe than their own and applying the appropriate caution/distrust required while determining if that person did in fact have designs on their food/shelter/woman etc. It is a natural instinct hard wired into your brain.

Some people will be all wound up after that paragraph. I believe it is the reality of the human condition. I don't think it is good or bad, it just is. Accepting that doesn't forever resign one to a life of racial segregation at all. Of my closest friends 40% are of a different skin colour to mine. They are close friends and we have had great discussions about what racism is .What I am trying to get at,is that upon initial contact, we are programmed to recognise "our own" or "not our own". Doing this is not racist, hate crimes against people because of their colour, not hiring someone for a job because of their race,these are racist
.
When immigrants move to a new country they gravitate towards each other, they create a community of people similar to them, are they racist for doing that? nah, it just makes good evolutionary sense to do so. Our society has changed so much in the last 2000years that our brains , our most basic instincts haven't kept up, an instinct that was vital to survival just 1000 years ago is now pretty much defunct but it is still hard wired in our brain
. In fact, some of our most useful natural instincts for survival are now causing us problems in a modern society where the law of the land is trying to squash the laws of nature. Thats fine by me,but it is a big task, one which will probably take 3-4000 years to achieve as we slowly re-wire.
PS Tonka, don't be ashamed mate, recognise it for what it is, make sure your highly evolved brain does what is right in todays society, not yester-years, and enjoy the diversity that we can now be part of in our day to day lives

Last edited by cjam; 25th Apr 2008 at 22:47. Reason: note to tonka
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 23:20   #4 (permalink)
 
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cjam, very, very well spoken.

Oh' that our politicians, journo's and law makers recognise and respect what you so accurately state!

Thank you.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 23:30   #5 (permalink)
 
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BA allegations of 'casual racism'

Story is now live on the Indy's cobweb. A serving BA captain according to the story - he claims to have e-mailed that nice Mr Walsh with his concerns and, feather me down with a knock, not had a reply. Mr Cat please meet the Pigeon family.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ba-815842.html

Last edited by Eagle402; 25th Apr 2008 at 23:32. Reason: comedy spelling
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 23:43   #6 (permalink)
Paxing All Over The World
 
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from the article:
Quote:
Mr Maughan alleges that racism is a "generational" problem – common among middle-aged pilots, but rare among younger pilots.
That is the key 'generational'. I am middle aged and grew up in South Africa and I think that Britain is a very racist country but then, so is every other country I have visited and worked in.

My friends in their 20s and 30s are so much better at not seeing the colour of skin, that it gives me hope for the future. Because Mr Maughan has only worked in the airline world - he perhaps thinks that it's a pilot problem. But, actually, he had it right when he said generational.

Human beings are tribal and they don't like other tribes. If a Londoner says nasty things about a person from Newcastle upon Tyne, are they being racist? If the Londoner is Caucasian and the Newcastle person is Black - is that racist? No, in both cases - it's Tribal.

Tribalism has driven mankind since we were hominids and it still does. Not very nice and it makes wars and all the rest but it is what we are.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 23:59   #7 (permalink)
 
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More rotten tomatoes being thrown at BA in the Independent. This is published in todays edition as well as the previously mentioned article.

Quote:
Robert Fisk: It's easy to be snotty with an airline so haughty that it regards its own customers as an inconvenience.

BA should be broken up and left with a core institution. Deportation or Rendition Airlines.

Saturday, 26 April 2008

Oh, those wretched "disruptive" passengers! Poor British Airways. They can't even ship off a crying man to Nigeria with the boys in blue to keep him quiet without passengers objecting and disrupting and disturbing their lovely aeroplanes. No wonder all the economy-class passengers were chucked off flight BA075 to Lagos on 27 March rather than have them object to the deportation of a crying man. Quite right, too.

Indeed, having long ago abandoned British Airways – arrogant check-in staff and Roxy usherette stewards and stewardesses – I've always thought the airline should be broken up and left with a core institution. Deportation Airlines, for example, or – if that sounds a trifle downmarket – Guantanamo Airlines, or even Rendition Airlines.

Of course, it's easy to be snotty with an airline that can be so haughty that it regards its own customers as an inconvenience. I won't recount the episode some years ago when I was asked at Heathrow if I had any sharp implements in my hand baggage. I do not have any sharp implements in my hand baggage, I replied. That was not good enough. "Answer 'yes' or 'no', Sir," I was admonished. My God, what had I done wrong? Was I in danger of suffering something worse than capital punishment: for instance, the British Airways "life ban" which has apparently been imposed on Ayodeji Omotade, who was arrested, stripped of his cash and abandoned at Heathrow because he objected to the deportation of the young man – anonymous, of course – on BA075.

What quite took my breath away was the outrageous letter that Jim Forster wrote to The Independent this week. Rejoicing in the title of "Manager, Government [sic] and Industry Affairs, British Airways," Jim Forster wrote with apparent indifference to passengers' feelings, which I consider symbolise his awful airline. For it seems that quite a lot of the other 136 passengers in economy class were also distressed at the way in which the deportee was being treated. Indeed, Jim admits in his letter that the deportee's presence "led to a large number of passengers causing such a serious disturbance that it required the intervention of 20 uniformed police officers to regain control of the situation. Given the level of disruption it was not possible to pinpoint which passengers were the most involved ..."

Now hold on a minute, Jim. Do you mean that 20 coppers – in addition to the four or five already keeping your deportee quiet, though crying – all marched into economy class to repress those "disruptive" passengers? Or did they hang around at the gate, thereby exaggerating the extent of the "disruptiveness"? And I don't mean to be rude, but – after the catastrophe of Terminal Five – don't you realise that the most disruptive institution at Heathrow is called British Airways? But I get the point. It's okay to ship thousands of your passengers' checked baggage items off to Milan – but they've got to shut up when you allow a weeping man to be dragged aboard for deportation.

Then there's the killer line at the beginning of your letter. "British Airways, like all other UK airlines, is required by law to carry deportees at the Government's request." Not so, Jim. A pilot has full discretion not to fly if a passenger – even a mere deportee – boards in a state of distress. You did, of course, choose not to mention in your letter that passengers (no doubt highly "disruptive") objected to the treatment of a female detainee forced aboard a Sabena flight at Brussels airport some years ago.

The pilot refused to fly her, the police restraining her were ordered off the plane and the passengers commended the crew. I can see why this wouldn't factor into your own letter because – and again, I am sure you are aware of this – the woman deportee subsequently died from her treatment at the hands of the Belgian police.

Then there's your unpleasant reminder that "we also have a zero-tolerance approach to any type of disturbance an aircraft ..." Well yes, I would hope so. But then explain to me, please, what kind of "disturbance" Salman Rushdie was causing on your planes when you banned him from British Airways after Ayatollah Khomeini uttered a death threat against him? Remember, Jim? British Airways was so frightened of carrying Rushdie that they simply refused to fly him. Now I'm no Rushdie fan,but does that mean that if one of my books gets up the nose of an Iranian ayatollah you're going to slap a ban on me, too? Does that make me a "disruptive" passenger, Jim?

Now I don't believe that airlines are all bad. I fly Air France – everywhere – and say this in all innocence. Other than a frequent-flyer card I have no financial interest in this excellent airline, and I urge British Airways passengers to transfer their affections to Air France next time they have to travel long distance. But I calculate that my lecture trips probably net Air France up to £60,000 a year and I guess it was inevitable that, some time ago, British Airways encouraged me to fly with them from Beirut to the American continent.

Just one trip, they told me, and I'll see how British Airways treats its passengers. And of course, sucker Bob bought a business class return across the Atlantic, found the crew polite and friendly, but then – on returning to Heathrow for my onward connection to Beirut – was downgraded to economy class. Flourishing a fistful of dollars in compensation, the Heathrow staff told me that the flight was overbooked.

No, it wasn't their fault, Jim. I know that. But it was the same old BA story. Too many of us animals had turned up for your flight and the last donkeys in transit got sent to the stalls at the back. I suppose I should have been grateful that I didn't have the pilot of BA075 at the controls. But I never returned to British Airways. So there's not much point in giving me the only honour I would like from you – a life-ban in case I am ever tempted to fly on your wretched aeroplanes again.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 23:59   #8 (permalink)

 
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Yeah, they're mildly racist.

And how much money do you want for this, exactly, Mr Maughan?

Going after Big Tobacco sent a strong signal - go after high profile business'.

They've all got money, and what better way to sue them than with a claim of racism.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 00:31   #9 (permalink)
 
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"I won't recount the episode some years ago when I was asked at Heathrow if I had any sharp implements in my hand baggage. I do not have any sharp implements in my hand baggage, I replied. That was not good enough. "Answer 'yes' or 'no', Sir," I was admonished. My God, what had I done wrong? Was I in danger of suffering something worse than capital punishment: for instance, the British Airways "life ban" which has apparently been imposed on Ayodeji Omotade, who was arrested, stripped of his cash and abandoned at Heathrow because he objected to the deportation of the young man – anonymous, of course – on BA075."


err you just did
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 01:24   #10 (permalink)
 
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Perhaps a case of off-the-cuff comments made light-heartedly in the opinion of the speaker, none of which were communicated directly to the person or parties involved?

I suppose the nitty-gritty would argue whether "racism" directly affected those being discussed and/or whether they suffered any discrimination or offence.

Is this a case of free-speech in the jocular, being confused with direct discrimination that leads to suffering of those being discriminated against?

Each of us may either frown or smile at the remarks made, but should the perpetrator be held to task or not?
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 01:29   #11 (permalink)
 
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Kiltie,

Funny thing is "nitty-gritty" is found to be "racist" by some people.

As it refers to the filth below decks, and has it's origins in the slave trade!
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 04:29   #12 (permalink)
 
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Well put cjam. Why is it racist to say someone is an XXXXXn when they come from XXXXXXa - that's what they are - XXXXXn End of story. To say all XXXXXX's are idiots would be racist, but to call one person an idiot - and they happen to be XXXXXn isn't - one is stating that they alone are an idiot, regardless of their ethnicity. Working for a S.E. Asia airline I had to be very careful what I said on the flt. deck, largely due to different interpretions of a sense of humour rather then perceived racist overtones, then we got an influx of Australians ( I'm a Brit. ) following their employment troubles in 1989 - what a relief, we were able to slag each other off and insult each others Country with gay ( oops - wrong word ! ) abandon and much laughter - a breath of fresh air and a more relaxed flight deck resulted. Lighten up, PC has gone mad.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 05:08   #13 (permalink)

 
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Cut to the chase please.

Now look dearies, please don`t try to confuse filth legally chucked out of a country back to their declared abode on conviction of crime with asylum seekers et al.
On a general note the dealers know that they probably won`t be leaving the airport after arrival. At least not breathing. Hence the squeeling.
Long may it be so.
Mind you, if you have cash in your pocket spare that you feel ought to go towards sponsorship of a drug dealing junior entrepreneur might l suggest that you give it to the RSPCA instead ?
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 06:50   #14 (permalink)
 
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How old is this BA Captain? He has just signed his own dismissal notice.I΄m guessing he isvery close to 55 and has had enough of what he perceives as racism. My own observations as a BA pilot are that BA bend over backwards to be fair and to be seen as fair, to the detriment of majorities.I can hardly think of any racist comments uttered by colleagues, unless moaning at the Spanish or French air traffic controllers for putting their own airlines first counts? As for R. Fisks comments about deportees...what does he suggest BA do? Personally, I would prefer the UK government to fly deportees out of some RAF base somewhere on a military aircraft. I don΄t like being an arm of the government.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 07:13   #15 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
.I can hardly think of any racist comments uttered by colleagues, unless moaning at the Spanish or French air traffic controllers for putting their own airlines first counts?
If only !! Life would be grand. I don't recall you Nigels being pushed to the back of the line at Heathrow.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 07:41   #16 (permalink)
 
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Although I would never buy the Independent, I occasionally pick it up when it is free in the hotel or when buying it you get a free bottle of water. As a consequence I have read some of the drivel put out by Robert Fisk on previous occasions.

His writing identifies him as a Trotskyist. His favouring of Air France derives from his belief that the state should run everything and Air France is as near a state run airline that you will get in Europe, with the exception of Alitalia. Even Fisk would not extol the virtues of the latter.

If Fisk is deriding BA, then BA must be better than I had thought. Fisk stands on his head on most subjects and on some gets an internal view of his own bowels. I must try BA. They have obviously improved.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 07:43   #17 (permalink)
 
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The Independent has been my newspaper of choice since it was first published but this is just pathetic 'BA-bashing' to no good purpose. I've just finished reading the article and the 3 'justifications' on page 2. This is just peurile lack of journalistic balance; it reduces the reputation of the whole of the Independent journalistic team, from the editor down.

According to the article, Mr. Maughan is 53. As you say, he's just effectively put in an application for early retirement. If you read it closely, you will find within his personal reasons for feeling particularly sensitive to an atmosphere of alleged racism.

Interestingly, I was once on the receiving end of racial abuse and a really peculiar feeling it was, too. I had a Scottish colleague who was vociferous in his racial slurs against the 'English' that went way beyond banter. Funnily enough, he had a surname that hinted at Italian lineage, but the irony of that didn't seem to have occurred to him.

This Winter, I've been instructing a load of 18-yr-old students in their first 15 hours to solo on a modular course. I guess around a third of them are from backgrounds that are not traditionally 'English'. There isn't a hint of tribal or 'racist' sentiment amongst any of the group, whatever their background. If these young men and women are the flight deck of the future, Mr Maughan's issues will quickly fade away along with his early retirement.

TheOddOne
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 07:48   #18 (permalink)

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Quote:
If only !! Life would be grand. I don't recall you Nigels being pushed to the back of the line at Heathrow.
Gosh. LHR ATC favor BA. I did not know that. Not too sure that Heathrow ATC would agree with you. But I am sure you know best.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 08:00   #19 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Although I would never buy the Independent, I occasionally pick it up when it is free in the hotel or when buying it you get a free bottle of water. As a consequence I have read some of the drivel put out by Robert Fisk on previous occasions.

His writing identifies him as a Trotskyist.
er... its the 'independent' what do you expect.
Independent has to be the most misleading description given to anything, ever. It should be called "commie, anti-capitalist, eviroterrorist propoganda rag"
I wouldn't wipe my bum on it.
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Old 26th Apr 2008, 08:36   #20 (permalink)
1DC
 
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I am well travelled and know and have friends from many different races. From my experience it is quite clear to me that all races are casually racist..
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