BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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Autobrake - there were some rumors sometime ago about it being a N registered or US based operation, but those were incorrect.
Its going to be G registered with initial crew bases in Paris and Brussels.
Its going to be G registered with initial crew bases in Paris and Brussels.
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The general consensus amongst this BA pilot is - I've just liquified all my assets into cash so I can last longer than BA during a strike. I really do think its that serious.
If OpenLies stays small then it costs the company nothing to have the 20 or so pilots on the seniority list. If it doesn't, then it is a direct threat to my livelihood (remember all airframes used are to be taken from the mainline fleet and there would be NOTHING to stop the company shifting 20 744's to europe next year if we let this start) and should be treated as such.
I hope the company sees sense. We're not even asking for our T&C's to be applied to the new routes.... What a way to treat a group that daily goes the extra mile to keep the airline running in the shambolic years since 9/11.
If OpenLies stays small then it costs the company nothing to have the 20 or so pilots on the seniority list. If it doesn't, then it is a direct threat to my livelihood (remember all airframes used are to be taken from the mainline fleet and there would be NOTHING to stop the company shifting 20 744's to europe next year if we let this start) and should be treated as such.
I hope the company sees sense. We're not even asking for our T&C's to be applied to the new routes.... What a way to treat a group that daily goes the extra mile to keep the airline running in the shambolic years since 9/11.
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It looks as if hsyteria is beginning to creep in here and people are worrying about shadows. BA has limited funds to invest in new ventures and the vast bulk of its forward expenditure is going into mainline and always will. This peripheral operation which is effectively New York to Europe is highly unlikely to affect anyone's prospects now or in the future. If the small number of surplus 757s don't go into the project then they will be sold or scrapped. If the project is to have any chance of success then it must keep costs below mainline levels and even then long term most would doubt that it has anything more than a 50/50 chance.
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The trouble is Skylion - I'm not going to wait for BA to announce a European base of 60 aircraft running W patterns through LHR before I see a threat.
If it is only to be a small base, put the 20 pilots on the bottom of the seniority list, on Lauren T&C's & therefore at no extra cost. If the venture fails, the pilots get the opportunity to join at LHR - again, no extra cost as we are recruiting anyway. They may not want to join anyway and will disappear - no extra cost.
If (as we all hope) Lauren succeeds, then surely BA will not pass up the opportunity to use its new 787's for this - they are designed for the purpose and far more cost efficient than 20 year old 757's. They are however being bought with the money saved from my pension.......
Ryanair was small once. Easy, Emirates, Virgin and, yes, even Jetstar were small once. The only hysteria will be the madness of the company if they think we can't see a Trojan horse when we see one.
Here's hoping for one small concession on Monday. (Me, I'd go for London T&C's but there we are.....)
If it is only to be a small base, put the 20 pilots on the bottom of the seniority list, on Lauren T&C's & therefore at no extra cost. If the venture fails, the pilots get the opportunity to join at LHR - again, no extra cost as we are recruiting anyway. They may not want to join anyway and will disappear - no extra cost.
If (as we all hope) Lauren succeeds, then surely BA will not pass up the opportunity to use its new 787's for this - they are designed for the purpose and far more cost efficient than 20 year old 757's. They are however being bought with the money saved from my pension.......
Ryanair was small once. Easy, Emirates, Virgin and, yes, even Jetstar were small once. The only hysteria will be the madness of the company if they think we can't see a Trojan horse when we see one.
Here's hoping for one small concession on Monday. (Me, I'd go for London T&C's but there we are.....)
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jacjetlag
Thanks for the post. You AA guys have a big set of knackers to be asking for that 50% plus raise. Well done as you deserve to get back what you lost post 9/11. We are trying to hang on to our T's and C's now and I am sure every AA pilot knows where we are coming from. Funny thing is we may be working for the same team sooner than later.
BA better be cautious over this one as it could turn in to a smoking hole in the ground before it even gets going. Mainline is the most profitable flag carrier on the planet and there are some big events in the calendar coming up. I have no idea why the boat needs to be rocked too much at this point. BA pilots welcome expansion with open arms but a pre planned attack on contracts will be met with swift and dare I say damaging action. The people I fly with are not interested in punch up. That being said if BA throws a sneaky blow though, the fight is on.
Lets hope it never gets to that.
Thanks for the post. You AA guys have a big set of knackers to be asking for that 50% plus raise. Well done as you deserve to get back what you lost post 9/11. We are trying to hang on to our T's and C's now and I am sure every AA pilot knows where we are coming from. Funny thing is we may be working for the same team sooner than later.
BA better be cautious over this one as it could turn in to a smoking hole in the ground before it even gets going. Mainline is the most profitable flag carrier on the planet and there are some big events in the calendar coming up. I have no idea why the boat needs to be rocked too much at this point. BA pilots welcome expansion with open arms but a pre planned attack on contracts will be met with swift and dare I say damaging action. The people I fly with are not interested in punch up. That being said if BA throws a sneaky blow though, the fight is on.
Lets hope it never gets to that.
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That "50% raise" is our 1992 wages, adjusted for 2.68 annaul inflation. We're currently working for a tad less than 1992 wages. We DEMAND restoration. We supported our Irish friends, and we're behind you guys too.
The pilot mindframe/personality is a "mission-hacker" solution oriented type. Management at ALL airlines take advantage of this DAILY. We "make it happen" and keep the airlines running. Basically, we go above & beyond the call of duty on a DAILY basis.
Most airlines would fall apart quickly, if the pilots just did what they have to do. (ie..one call to mx, then sit on hands) Remove the emotions, and just do the job...and NOT worry about ANYONE being "mad" at you/us. So many departments; catering/fueling/mx, etc...have their head deep up their arses.....SO BE IT.
Good luck with Open Lies. APA/AA pilots are behind you.
KC
The pilot mindframe/personality is a "mission-hacker" solution oriented type. Management at ALL airlines take advantage of this DAILY. We "make it happen" and keep the airlines running. Basically, we go above & beyond the call of duty on a DAILY basis.
Most airlines would fall apart quickly, if the pilots just did what they have to do. (ie..one call to mx, then sit on hands) Remove the emotions, and just do the job...and NOT worry about ANYONE being "mad" at you/us. So many departments; catering/fueling/mx, etc...have their head deep up their arses.....SO BE IT.
Good luck with Open Lies. APA/AA pilots are behind you.
KC
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CanAV8R.....
There is honor in this fight. We wish BALPA all the best. Open Lies had better not show up at our gates in JFK. They will have some hellacious waiting trying to get out of the alley between terminals.
There is honor in this fight. We wish BALPA all the best. Open Lies had better not show up at our gates in JFK. They will have some hellacious waiting trying to get out of the alley between terminals.
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Most airlines would fall apart quickly, if the pilots just did what they have to do. (ie..one call to mx, then sit on hands) Remove the emotions, and just do the job...and NOT worry about ANYONE being "mad" at you/us. So many departments; catering/fueling/mx, etc...have their head deep up their arses.....SO BE IT.
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Flight website has something about the situation, reported here, seems to suggest crews didn't know BA was going to spill the details this early. 
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If the project is to have any chance of success then it must keep costs below mainline levels and even then long term most would doubt that it has anything more than a 50/50 chance.
Do pay attention, Skylion. I presume you're management....
Flight website has something about the situation...
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The support of APA/AA pilots was absolutely crucial to IALPA/Aer Lingus pilots in preventing the introduction of a similar Trojan horse in Belfast. Following a short sharp fight, pilots for this BFS operation are now on the seniority list with the right eventually to transfer to mainline, but are on local T&cs while BFS based. Thank you to our AA colleagues. We hope that our friends in BA are equally successful in resisting this attack. It can be done! Good luck.
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Fargoo.......
Why would KC135777 say such a thing?
Perhaps he was pushed from his Narrow Body captain seat and given a further 23% paycut afterwards(45% total), His CEO then told him "Pull together, win together". The company was saved because of employee sacrifices. Five years later there is no "win together" , only obscene multi-million dollar bonuses for executives. The pilots have asked for a restoration of pay and were told "work more hours". At AA , the employee's disgust is universal across all employee groups. Perhaps you'd have to be here to understand. AA management's arrogance knows no boundaries , but they will soon understand they have gone too far.
Why would KC135777 say such a thing?
Perhaps he was pushed from his Narrow Body captain seat and given a further 23% paycut afterwards(45% total), His CEO then told him "Pull together, win together". The company was saved because of employee sacrifices. Five years later there is no "win together" , only obscene multi-million dollar bonuses for executives. The pilots have asked for a restoration of pay and were told "work more hours". At AA , the employee's disgust is universal across all employee groups. Perhaps you'd have to be here to understand. AA management's arrogance knows no boundaries , but they will soon understand they have gone too far.
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Would you all just catch a grip
Every airline and its dog are trying to muscle in on Heathrow, THE ONLY MAJOR HUB OF YOUR AIRLINE.
So BA tries in a pathetic little manner to stick it back to them with a couple of aging 757.
And the support they get from their own employees?
Dunno why they would bother. Just let Continental, Delta, KLM, Air France, Northwest, US Airways, Virgin, United, bmi rip their market to shreds while the BA pilots bicker over threats, real or imaginary.
flame all you like. Let me tell you that your business class passengers have given BA the benefit of the doubt for far to long.
We've put up with enough crap, and still it continues. Time to go elsewhere.
So BA tries in a pathetic little manner to stick it back to them with a couple of aging 757.
And the support they get from their own employees?
Dunno why they would bother. Just let Continental, Delta, KLM, Air France, Northwest, US Airways, Virgin, United, bmi rip their market to shreds while the BA pilots bicker over threats, real or imaginary.
flame all you like. Let me tell you that your business class passengers have given BA the benefit of the doubt for far to long.
We've put up with enough crap, and still it continues. Time to go elsewhere.
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Fargoo,
The truth hurts, doesn't it?
Shall I continue?
How about during a delay? ...during a ramp worker's shift change? NO continuity between shifts- but a 10-20 minute delay before ANYbody shows up to push off. Or, even if you're an ON time arrival...where is everybody? Hmmm, we're ON schedule. Hmmm, WHY in the heck to we "keep surprising" them EVERY day? The blind leading the blind?!
Yeah, that's right....unFlippinBelievable.
That's what disgusts me- on a DAILY basis.
So, so, so tired of constantly apologizing to the passengers.
KC
The truth hurts, doesn't it?
Shall I continue?
How about during a delay? ...during a ramp worker's shift change? NO continuity between shifts- but a 10-20 minute delay before ANYbody shows up to push off. Or, even if you're an ON time arrival...where is everybody? Hmmm, we're ON schedule. Hmmm, WHY in the heck to we "keep surprising" them EVERY day? The blind leading the blind?!
Yeah, that's right....unFlippinBelievable.
That's what disgusts me- on a DAILY basis.
So, so, so tired of constantly apologizing to the passengers.
KC
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I agree with you Fargoo.
It's really not as though the pilot community are the only people that go above and beyond. Try talking to passenger service staff that go 40-60 staff down per shift. No extra payments for working 'one-down' for them.
Look at the dispatchers covering multiple flights due to people leaving or sickness. Look at the load controllers covering for the loss of 10 of their colleagues. Yet load sheets still get to the crews in 10 minutes or less, so they can go on doing their 'above and beyond' bit. Consider the engineers going out of their way to fix something that could cause a cancellation. Why stay on after your shift, going above and beyond, when you can just write it up, make it U/S and go home? Consider yourself important by all means - after all, you fly the bus. But you wont go anywhere without my loadsheet first..
What I'm saying is, we don't have our heads up our arses, we just get on with our jobs, and don't have the arrogance to go on telling people how we hold the airline together or stop the sh*t hitting the fan. We just do it.
It's really not as though the pilot community are the only people that go above and beyond. Try talking to passenger service staff that go 40-60 staff down per shift. No extra payments for working 'one-down' for them.
Look at the dispatchers covering multiple flights due to people leaving or sickness. Look at the load controllers covering for the loss of 10 of their colleagues. Yet load sheets still get to the crews in 10 minutes or less, so they can go on doing their 'above and beyond' bit. Consider the engineers going out of their way to fix something that could cause a cancellation. Why stay on after your shift, going above and beyond, when you can just write it up, make it U/S and go home? Consider yourself important by all means - after all, you fly the bus. But you wont go anywhere without my loadsheet first..
What I'm saying is, we don't have our heads up our arses, we just get on with our jobs, and don't have the arrogance to go on telling people how we hold the airline together or stop the sh*t hitting the fan. We just do it.
Sadly LHR 777, you have hit the nail on the head. A perfect description of LHR on a good day.Lord knows what is going to happen in the event of a bit of disruption/bad weather/computer failure/go slow. I know that I plod into work, do the best I can and then go home indifferent as to whether the operation holds together or not. Part of me thinks that the company deserves to go bust, because the airline that would be rebuilt could sort out most of LHRs' problems with a clean sheet. Then I realise that actually, the good people would go elsewhere, and we would be stuck with the same idiots that we have dragging the airline down at the moment. So, what to do? Defend our T's and C's like the other staff seem to? I think so, except we'll keep within the law and ballot for a strike.
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I'll have to slightly distance myself from KC135777.
Its very frustrating to do all you can and see nobody there on the ramp.
For sure there are some really rotten elements in all departments that believe earning a wage for cock all work is the norm. (even in flight ops thats the case)
However BA has stripped all the fat of the meat and there is not a lot of flex in the system when 'certain' forces act upon it.
LHR_777 it's not as rosy a picture you are painting of ground staff.....
for example: push scheduled right before shift change. push truck there, tug connected, a/c about to push back. small failure leads to a 10min delay. push crew buggers off since it's shift change. UN bloody believeable. Not my aisle mate is the simple answer....
@CaptJ: obviously you've missed a lot of background information on this issue. The support is there from the employees (ai pilots) to make OpenSkies a success. But would you be happy with setting up a seperate company under your banner with the potential to eventually replace you or forced to take different T&C's (Jetstar-Qantas)... I think not.
Many of our business passengers are happy with the service they get and rank our crews as a major reason to fly BA.
We want BA to succeed but not over the back of their own employees when we've given up so much over the last 10yrs or so. ai pension, increased flying hours (to the max allowed), work bidding arrangements etc etc the list goes on.
We indeed put nothing in the way of success for OpenSkies. It's why many of us can not understand what BA are playing it. Obviously up to something
Its very frustrating to do all you can and see nobody there on the ramp.
For sure there are some really rotten elements in all departments that believe earning a wage for cock all work is the norm. (even in flight ops thats the case)
However BA has stripped all the fat of the meat and there is not a lot of flex in the system when 'certain' forces act upon it.
LHR_777 it's not as rosy a picture you are painting of ground staff.....
for example: push scheduled right before shift change. push truck there, tug connected, a/c about to push back. small failure leads to a 10min delay. push crew buggers off since it's shift change. UN bloody believeable. Not my aisle mate is the simple answer....
@CaptJ: obviously you've missed a lot of background information on this issue. The support is there from the employees (ai pilots) to make OpenSkies a success. But would you be happy with setting up a seperate company under your banner with the potential to eventually replace you or forced to take different T&C's (Jetstar-Qantas)... I think not.
Many of our business passengers are happy with the service they get and rank our crews as a major reason to fly BA.
We want BA to succeed but not over the back of their own employees when we've given up so much over the last 10yrs or so. ai pension, increased flying hours (to the max allowed), work bidding arrangements etc etc the list goes on.
We indeed put nothing in the way of success for OpenSkies. It's why many of us can not understand what BA are playing it. Obviously up to something