BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies

[stormin norman]

Hand Solo

'but I've still got three months salary stashed away from the last dispute. I'll last a strike longer than BA will.'

You may,but try telling that to the missus, family,and the morgage lender.

I bet a pound to a penny you've never been out on strike ?

[vikena]

It is extremely important that these open skies cockpits are populated at least in part by mainline pilots.

If there is no expression of interest say from a junior fo to bid for an Open skies command ( surely there will be financial reward for a promotion) then management will say and justifiably so that it will be crewed from direct entries.

This gives BA carte blanche to create whatever T Cs it wishes.

This hugely weakens the bargaining position of BACC , whose bottom line position must be that OS cannot be used to undermine and/or diminish the current mainline package and mainline work.

People like stormin norman pitifully miss the point and unfortunately see themselves in a BA cocoon divorced from real world economies and factors.
This is not about going on strike for someone not in the company .This is about going on strike to protect what you have.

BACC , while I wish you every success , you may have a considerable education program to undertake to ensure the result which you most correctly seek.

ps I am not a BA pilot but pilots unions everywhere are watching this one extremely closely.

V

[M.Mouse]

Albert Hall you are missing the point completely.

Jetstar did exactly what BA plan to do. Small operation no problem guys you are OK. Move on 5 years massive expansion new BA 787s or whatever aircraft sent straight to OpenLies. Routes they fly? Direct Europe to the USA. Which passengers? Those who previously flew Europe - LHR - USA. I have no problem with that if all the pilots are on a common seniority list and ultimately will then have the same aspirations and common interests. Without then there is nothing to stop BA diverting more and more of the company resources into OpenLies to the detriment of mainline. If you think otherwise then I am afraid I see that as very naive thinking.

stormin norman

I dislike trade unions. I dislike trade union militancy and above all I hate the idea of striking. Unfortunately it is a fact of modern life that those who manage at the top will line their own nests comfortably at the expense of anybody else. They then sail away and start all over again elsewhere leaving behind a trail of degraded terms and conditions.

In the past year I have seen my pension degraded significantly. I have seen my flying hours increase to close to 900 hrs p.a. and now WW wants to start taking LHR passengers away from LHR. That is fine but I will fight to protect my right to access that work and support those taken on directly by OpenLies when it is BA management, BA money, BA aircraft and much else all coming from BA to setup OpenLies. We are not asking for identical terms and conditions just a common seniority list, why is that such a problem?

Will I strike? With heavy heart, you (and WW) had better believe it.

[Wayne Ker]

Striking is a serious business and action will not be taken lightly I guess. However, with the global economic turmoil, is it wise to rock the boat to such a degree. The Openskies airline is surely an insurance policy for BA economically. It is a seperate brand to mainline BA and gives BA PLC a foot hold in Europe and the skies to the states.

LHR is at capacity now, always loads of delays and because expansion is not likely in the near future,it is unlikely to improve. Punters will go via Europe instead to avoid delays and expense. BA have to be a part of it to maintain their presence on the Atlantic routes.

I am sure most BA pilots would not want to fly it as the rosters will be very different to what they are use to. What about having a mixture of direct entry and also BA retirees to keep a weather eye on things and to dilute the mix of non BA people, not that I think that is necessary, there are a lot of good professional pilots out there in the world who may bring newer ideas to the think tank?

I do not see BA diluting the brand at all, it is a seperate entity.

[FlyingTom]

Whether you strike or not over O/S will come down to whether you give value to BA's word. The dispute is about a written agreement, sch. K. In it BA gives it's word to work with it's pilots to "enable BALPA to proceed with confidence that the interests of Pilot Officers are being and will be protected and enhanced...". In exchange "BALPA agrees not to inhibit the deployment of aircraft for best commercial or economic advantage..." and basically not get in the way of BA making pots of money.

Sch.K only works if there is honesty of intention on both sides. To this aim BA agree to keep in regular confidential communication with a select BACC panel. The spirit of the agreement is that BA/BALPA won't make under-hand changes that affect the aims of sch. K, whilst acknowledging the need to move with the times. With this equality of arms BA/BALPA can enter any discussions knowing the facts and intentions.

Well BA mentioned P/L (O/S) in the spring yet wouldn't even discuss it until December when they had already started recruiting. If you look outside the Heathrow goldfish bowl their are glaring examples of what happens when an airline turns it's affection on a younger willing sibbling. JAL/JALways, Qantas/Jetstar, Iberia/Clickair, Cathay Pacific/Dragon Air. All OneWorld.

If you believe that BA's word is it's seal then there is no need to strike. If you think they haven't honoured Sch.K then only a complete fool would trust their latest O/S Summary Document promises.

I think their word is a crock of se.

[MrBunker]

Trust BA's word. Ah bless.

Fight's on Willie. The stakes are far far too high for me not to fight this one.

Mr B

PS How long before the usual crows about guys expecting to walk into DEC on our 744s?

[Iva harden]

BA are out to make money like any other business. They want the lions share of the Atlantic routes and to that end will do what they have to do to secure that. Pilots are just cogs in that business, true , a pilot is an important cog, but all the same BA will do what it wants as it has done over many years to the detriment of people and other Airlines...Dan Air, Bcal, Laker etc.... I can see why BA pilots are worried, this new airline could do very well and take business from LHR, but money talks and BA will have to make money elsewhere to get the growth they need. I guess Openskies has been made a subsidary to avoid the union demands and to enable it to have a much lower cost base to give it a fighting chance with the competition. I do not think strike action would do BA/ pilots any good, it will cause more disruption at LHR and drive the customers elsewhere.....europe. Damned if you do....but less damned if you don't.

[Basil]

This action is ridiculously out of proportion, and headlines in every daily newspaper screaming "BA pilots to strike" will not be at all helpful to the airline during its peak booking season.

So perhaps WW should act accordingly.


Basil, BA retd. so unfair to talk the talk when not reqd to walk the walk.

[the heavy heavy]

albert, you miss my point.

only time and the aaib will decide what factor the skill of the handling pilot had in the outcome of the 777 'incident'. my point was for a brief second it looked like the company had been forced to remember exactly why you want the best pilots available sitting in your aircraft. no disrespect to anybody sitting anywhere else.

market forces will surely force the best qualified into the best paid jobs. want the best pay the best. want to run an airline on the cheap, expect a lower quality of employee, it's not that hard to work out is it!

the only people in BA who do not see the need to strike are the management and the already sorted, recently extended, senior guys who with a couple of years extra pay care little for the prospects of those of us with 20 years left to do.

[Morpheme]

Yes or No?

I agree with the BACC's stand on this issue. Some onlookers still don't seem to understand that motivation is not standing for the benefit of future OpenSkies pilots T&C's!

It's about standing for OUR (mainline) T&C's which will be driven down as a result of OS's success. If OS is a big hit, I want it to succeed as well - it's good for my company as a whole.

What I don't want is it taking away my mainline job cos it suits the company to do so! I don't want to end up with my back to the wall, forced to choose between redundancy or a post in OpenSkies (a not unforeseeable consequence!)

As for the ballot - to vote No is a wasted vote. If the vote is carried, you will be exopected to go on strike anyway (after all, it is called a UNION)! A Yes vote is a clear declaration of intent. The company may do an 11th hour climbdown in the face of overwhelming support, but this time the future of both groups (LT and pilots) is at stake, so this one is going to end messily.

As a BALPA member, I have only one option here - and I am already making preparations for the inevitable. It has to be a YES.

[FlyingTom]

BA won't climb down no matter how strong the yes vote. Willy doesn't really have any other plans to improve BA's profits. This is the sword he is going to have to lie down on and strike action is the sword we will have to lie down on.

On this one we will have to actually strike, and on several occassions, until the shareholders hand Willy the sword.

[rebellion]

I'm 100% With the BA pilots! Do not allow BA to destroy your T&C's.

Just look at the mess easyJet are in with different contracts around europe. easyJet has just drawn up new contracts for european pilots... no sick pay... no pension etc etc.

I just wish BALPA where more proactive with the easyJet pilots on this issue!

Don't allow it guys....... next year openLies could be flying from Manchester, Glasgow, Belfast or Cardiff to the USA.

Terminal 5 is going to look pretty empty on it's first day!

[fruitbat]

There is huge support for the BACC on this topic, it may well be the most important dispute in the last 20 years. We BA pilots will fight this all the way and in doing so lay down a marker for all other airline management that have similar plans. Before anyone starts the BA pilot bashing I suggest you read the proposals and then consider what you would do in a similar position. It's not a nice course of action, no-one doubts that....

[northern boy]

Gents you are doing yourself no favours by referring to openskies recruits as scabs as one poster did, or trying to claim that only BA mainline pilots are safe and competent to operate the routes. Remember that there are more BALPA members outside of BA than in it. Until BALPA issue an edict not to apply or work for openskies then no one is going to not do so. As you have so frequently said in this thread, the BA pilots care not a fig for anyone else, they are looking after their own interests. Fair enough, however the O/S recruits are looking after theirs and many are probably BALPA members themselves. You need the support of the rest of the membership (outside of BA) if you want to win this one. Alienating other pilots by claiming superiority is not going to help.

[A. Le Rhone]

....yes but Northern Boy look at it another way. BA pilots might like to view themselves (and I am happy for them to do so) as the standard-bearers for the industry but so what?. They MUST stop management heavy-handedness. They MUST nip this nonsense in the bud NOW. Otherwise they will end up just like the very weak and sychophantic Qantas pilots, cunningly bypassed by the Trojan Horse that is Jetstar.

By quashing this threat now, BA pilots are not being arrogant - they are being the standard-bearers for not only themselves but the industry as a whole. Victory here will at least send a message to the idiots of the management world (read O'Leary etc) that you can't screw your troops forever.

Good luck BA pilots. You are not only fighting your own battle. Clamp down on this Open Skies now, and clamp down hard.

[Fake Sealion]

EU Open Skies

Following this thread with interest. Is the BA business plan to form a separate entity for trans-altantic traffic unique? Would it also be a tempting move for Air France, Lufthansa, KLM etc al? Surely if pilot unions on a pan Euro-wide basis could challenge this, the collective airline management would be under severe pressure to back down.

[M.Mouse]

northernboy we are not trying to claim superiority, that we are safer or any other arrogant and unjustifiable claim. What we are asking for is a common seniority list to protect not just BA pilot's long term future but to give us all a sporting chance in improving OpenLie's pilot's Ts & Cs when the business is established, booming and can afford to share some of that profit with those creating it.

Ryanair is a good example of how the pilot groups are hopelessly dividied (legally) when it comes to trying to improve their lot.

[biddedout]

Obviously not much chance of the directors and managers cuting their ties with the mothership, but just wondering whether OS is going to be a stand alone operation from an acconting point of view. Or will it be like BACiti Express, with the books consolidated into the main company accounts so that no one can see what is going on, partcularly the cross subsidies/ handling / head office charges?

[Morpheme]

but to give us all a sporting chance in improving OpenLie's pilot's Ts & Cs

OpenSkies future T&C's are incidental to this ballot - that is not the object of the BACC's stance on this issue. It is the protection of the existing mainline pilots, and the addition of the OS pilots to that mainline seniority list.

The OS pilots' greater longterm benefit will be found within the BA mainline pilots' community, not outside it - if they remain outside it, all of us can kiss our respective T&Cs goodbye longterm!

If we start saying we want this strike to be a platform to improve the OS pilots' lot, then we are playing into the company's argument - namely, that BALPA wants to directly interfere with how BA wants to play with its new toy, which is not quite the case.

[FlyingTom]

northern boy.

Just to make it absolutely clear there is no suggestion from BA pilots that any O/S pilot is any less worthy or that pilots in other airlines are in anyway lesser pilots. Indeed, many BA pilots were once flying for other airlines including members of the BACC. The O/S DECs have seen it / it done it, and most once flew BA 757's. The best pilots' pilot I know flies for Ryanair (John Coward excepted).

We are aware that we do generally have better T&C's and that our company makes better profits. If the equivalent of Ryanair was suddenly attached to us it would eventually drag our T&C's down. As it is O/S wil already affect the future but we are trying to mitigate it.

To stop this we propose (and BA oppose) common seniority, aka common pilot goal. Therefore pp24 Jumbo command is an achievable aspiration for all BA mainline pilots (and O/S pilots will be mainline pilots).

Of course there will still be general grumblings about the Golden Runways, I fly from the southern 3rd runway and have a few gripes but within time I will have access.

Now if the BACC capitulate it will drastically affect all UK pilots T&C. Your own T&C's (which are very good) are negotiated with an eye to BA. At the moment your company can only say "but you only fly 760hrs". In five years time they will say "but we are paying you more than BA".