Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
We were parked up in Boston last night when it began to snow,having been forecast for a number of hours.
We immediately called for de-icing to be ready once we were all closed up,but we then had a delay due to ground handling company staff shortages.
In the meantime this gave us a perfect seat to watch with astonishment when the Iberia A340 parked next to us called up for push and start.
ATC asked whether he had de-iced and he replied that 'we do not need to'.
I immediately replied with a 'yes you do!!' as the whole of the A340 was covered in snow,with visible deposits on all surfaces including the tops of the wings.
But this was ignored and they pushed back,sarcastically waving as they did.
I discussed this with the co pilot and we both agreed that this was madness.
I called ATC and just stated that the A340 was covered in snow,as we had a birds eye view,hoping they would intervene in the interests of safety.
But that was the last we heard,and they took off.
Quite possibly the most unprofessional bit of aviation I've ever seen.
We immediately called for de-icing to be ready once we were all closed up,but we then had a delay due to ground handling company staff shortages.
In the meantime this gave us a perfect seat to watch with astonishment when the Iberia A340 parked next to us called up for push and start.
ATC asked whether he had de-iced and he replied that 'we do not need to'.
I immediately replied with a 'yes you do!!' as the whole of the A340 was covered in snow,with visible deposits on all surfaces including the tops of the wings.
But this was ignored and they pushed back,sarcastically waving as they did.
I discussed this with the co pilot and we both agreed that this was madness.
I called ATC and just stated that the A340 was covered in snow,as we had a birds eye view,hoping they would intervene in the interests of safety.
But that was the last we heard,and they took off.
Quite possibly the most unprofessional bit of aviation I've ever seen.
Last edited by LightTwin Driver; 3rd Dec 2007 at 16:26.
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It is a well established fact that, just because you fly for a "flag carrier" does not make you immune from stupidity.
Just wander if any of the other poor pax and crew realised it may have been their last flight. No doubt in the ensuing "accident" report the blame would be put on other parties, by the registry authority.
Just wander if any of the other poor pax and crew realised it may have been their last flight. No doubt in the ensuing "accident" report the blame would be put on other parties, by the registry authority.
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At the end of the day, its the Captains decision. He made a decision based on what he could see and using his expereince and company procedures. It's not really your place to start questioning his professionalism behind his back with ATC or indeed on this forum.
Last edited by fruitbat; 3rd Dec 2007 at 18:09.
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Makes me wonder.
Just read your thread, I can't believe the lack of understanding of this crew in icing conditions.
The fact that you as a crew were "looking out" for these cowboys, in itself should be highly praised. Good CRM as far as I am concerned, so if I had been the Iberia crew, this information would have been welcomed!
A brief story, if you don't mind!
A few years back in ANC I had asked for de-icing (heavy jet).
Well what do you know; A few minutes later we receive a call from the ground person informing the crew we had completed de-icing.
I turned around and asked the other two crew members if they had heard the start time for the second application of fluid (we used 2 step de-icing then).
None of us could reason as to why we had not been told this. I called the de-icing supervisor and asked what was going on. He did not know the procedures as he was new to the job, so I requested an engineer to start the whole process again.
The impression I got was "it was good enough", but I countered this by saying, "proper procedure or we don't go", period.
I never rush briefings etc or go outside any "hold over" times in these weather conditions, I go when we are ready!
The fact that you as a crew were "looking out" for these cowboys, in itself should be highly praised. Good CRM as far as I am concerned, so if I had been the Iberia crew, this information would have been welcomed!
A brief story, if you don't mind!
A few years back in ANC I had asked for de-icing (heavy jet).
Well what do you know; A few minutes later we receive a call from the ground person informing the crew we had completed de-icing.
I turned around and asked the other two crew members if they had heard the start time for the second application of fluid (we used 2 step de-icing then).
None of us could reason as to why we had not been told this. I called the de-icing supervisor and asked what was going on. He did not know the procedures as he was new to the job, so I requested an engineer to start the whole process again.
The impression I got was "it was good enough", but I countered this by saying, "proper procedure or we don't go", period.
I never rush briefings etc or go outside any "hold over" times in these weather conditions, I go when we are ready!
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Very often deposits that look like frost on the top of the wings turn out to be just condensation. For all you know the Iberia Captain had been on a high lift and established that. You can't start making judgement calls from the stand next door! By all means bring it to their attention but once they have answered you, respect their view and don't start mentioning it on a forum like this with exact flight numbers etc...
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Fruitbat is fruit loop
Fruitbat, your the bloody fruit loop mate. And it seems that youve changed your stance from 'dont question his professionalism' to 'by all means bring it to his attention.
I would have blushed, but welcomed the observation. And he didnt do it behind Iberias back he did it on the same frequency.
Id prefer LTD parked next to me the adjacent stand any day, than a donkey such as you !
I would have blushed, but welcomed the observation. And he didnt do it behind Iberias back he did it on the same frequency.
Id prefer LTD parked next to me the adjacent stand any day, than a donkey such as you !
He made it home safely, therefore he made a correct call that time.
He may or may not have needed to be de-iced (chances are he did as it was snowing and by the sounds of it everyone else thought they needed it to) but just because he got away with it does NOT mean he made the right call. If they had lost an engine during the take off it may have been a very different story.
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Ok, that was worded wrongly... My only point is how far can we go? We are entrusted to do the job to a safe standard and yes everyone should look out for each other, but at the end of the day, its their judgement call. Every airline has different procedures, and I know mine, but I certainly know nothing of Iberia's or Ryanair's etc. Putting a thread on here with an emotive title like 'Iberia Cowboys' wouldn't seem to be in the best interests of the profession, considering the readership. Things are not always as they seem
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FRUITBAT
At least you had the good taste to have selected an appropriate pseudonym
Since when has getting away with it (this time) been acceptable policy for ANY pilot.. never mind a capt of a major carrier ?
At least you had the good taste to have selected an appropriate pseudonym
Since when has getting away with it (this time) been acceptable policy for ANY pilot.. never mind a capt of a major carrier ?
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At the end of the day, its the Captains decision. He made a decision based on what he could see and using his expereince and company procedures. It's not really your place to start questioning his professionalism behind his back with ATC or indeed on this forum. I doubt every decision you make is perfect either.
If his company procedure allow him to take off with his upper wings COVERED in moderate deposits of snow,then I'm damn glad I never have to fly with IB.
I didn't question his professionalism behind his back with ATC.
I merely mentioned that he had a serious need to deice when he said he didn't-which he ignored.
At no time after the snow had started did we see any tech crew come outside and look at the airframe -and we were parked at an angle to him so we could literally see the whole left side of his aircraft.
I told ATC,after he had pushed because I was seriously concerned for his passenger's safety,which is more than he was.
If ANY other pilot passed a comment concerning my aeroplane,I would always check it out,as we all make mistakes.
To ignore this AND then to have to convince ATC 3 times that he didn't need de-icing was beyond belief.
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If the wing ain't clean , we do not go , full stop.
In a 74 in Canada many moons ago , asked for de-icing , very experienced eng said ' Its only dry snow , it will blow off during the take-off run ' . He was probably correct , but - 'no clean wing , no go' , sorry.
After all , its not as if the pilots had to pay for it !
In a 74 in Canada many moons ago , asked for de-icing , very experienced eng said ' Its only dry snow , it will blow off during the take-off run ' . He was probably correct , but - 'no clean wing , no go' , sorry.
After all , its not as if the pilots had to pay for it !
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Think I have to agree with Fruitbat and my understanding of his point of view.
To claim to have the full understanding of any investigations the Iberia crew have already conducted is arrogant and thoroughly unproffessional to attempt to name and shame them here. As you say at no time did you see any tech crew check his aircraft this doesnt mean it didnt happen. Indeed I would hope you were concentrating on your own aircraft and procedures. You were unsure whether he was sufficiently deiced and you voiced your concern, fair enough, good call even. BUt thats where it ends. He is the Captain of his aircraft its his decision, to assume a lack of professionalism because you disagree with that is wrong especially when not party to any discussions held in a cockpit you were not in.
As for comments that although he made it back safely doesnt mean it was the right decision, I'm afraid we have to assume it does. We cannot start offering what ifs and buts to justify our arguements based on no knowledge other than that placed here by someone who may be miffed that he looked stupid on the radio when he was ignored.
To claim to have the full understanding of any investigations the Iberia crew have already conducted is arrogant and thoroughly unproffessional to attempt to name and shame them here. As you say at no time did you see any tech crew check his aircraft this doesnt mean it didnt happen. Indeed I would hope you were concentrating on your own aircraft and procedures. You were unsure whether he was sufficiently deiced and you voiced your concern, fair enough, good call even. BUt thats where it ends. He is the Captain of his aircraft its his decision, to assume a lack of professionalism because you disagree with that is wrong especially when not party to any discussions held in a cockpit you were not in.
As for comments that although he made it back safely doesnt mean it was the right decision, I'm afraid we have to assume it does. We cannot start offering what ifs and buts to justify our arguements based on no knowledge other than that placed here by someone who may be miffed that he looked stupid on the radio when he was ignored.
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I love the fact people of so rational on this forum! I am purely pointing out that we have to respect other pilots' professionalism. It does no one any good to publicly slate one of our own on an open forum. It just gives the Daily Mail something to write. If you are concerned go through the proper industry channels.
Do we have to go back on stand every time a cabin crew member hears a funny noise, or a passenger see's fuel 'leaking' from the end of the wing, as can be the case on my aircraft. No, we use of knowledge and professionalism to make an informed decision, explain what the problem was, and thank them for their observation.
The Iberia has no way of answering your rather over enthusiastic critisisms and thus this is no place to start questioning his operation.
Do we have to go back on stand every time a cabin crew member hears a funny noise, or a passenger see's fuel 'leaking' from the end of the wing, as can be the case on my aircraft. No, we use of knowledge and professionalism to make an informed decision, explain what the problem was, and thank them for their observation.
The Iberia has no way of answering your rather over enthusiastic critisisms and thus this is no place to start questioning his operation.
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Cowboys?
Do you have any idea how many Cowboys you have offended?
My philosophy is: If I wonder if I should de-ice, then I should.
(A man walks into a bar and says "All lawyers are a..holes". One man stands up and says " I don't appreciate that remark". The other guy then says " Why, are you a lawyer?", He says "No, I am an a..hole.)
My philosophy is: If I wonder if I should de-ice, then I should.
(A man walks into a bar and says "All lawyers are a..holes". One man stands up and says " I don't appreciate that remark". The other guy then says " Why, are you a lawyer?", He says "No, I am an a..hole.)
I tend to agree with the coments that discussion of criticsm based on the reported circumstances is warranted, but discussions of specific culpability by identifying the exact flight and operator treads into areas that I fear a public forum should never go.
Someday you may be on the recieving end as well and then back to the dark ages and witches stakes
Someday you may be on the recieving end as well and then back to the dark ages and witches stakes
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Think I have to agree with Fruitbat and my understanding of his point of view.
To claim to have the full understanding of any investigations the Iberia crew have already conducted is arrogant and thoroughly unproffessional to attempt to name and shame them here. As you say at no time did you see any tech crew check his aircraft this doesnt mean it didnt happen. Indeed I would hope you were concentrating on your own aircraft and procedures. You were unsure whether he was sufficiently deiced and you voiced your concern, fair enough, good call even. BUt thats where it ends. He is the Captain of his aircraft its his decision, to assume a lack of professionalism because you disagree with that is wrong especially when not party to any discussions held in a cockpit you were not in.
As for comments that although he made it back safely doesnt mean it was the right decision, I'm afraid we have to assume it does. We cannot start offering what ifs and buts to justify our arguements based on no knowledge other than that placed here by someone who may be miffed that he looked stupid on the radio when he was ignored.
To claim to have the full understanding of any investigations the Iberia crew have already conducted is arrogant and thoroughly unproffessional to attempt to name and shame them here. As you say at no time did you see any tech crew check his aircraft this doesnt mean it didnt happen. Indeed I would hope you were concentrating on your own aircraft and procedures. You were unsure whether he was sufficiently deiced and you voiced your concern, fair enough, good call even. BUt thats where it ends. He is the Captain of his aircraft its his decision, to assume a lack of professionalism because you disagree with that is wrong especially when not party to any discussions held in a cockpit you were not in.
As for comments that although he made it back safely doesnt mean it was the right decision, I'm afraid we have to assume it does. We cannot start offering what ifs and buts to justify our arguements based on no knowledge other than that placed here by someone who may be miffed that he looked stupid on the radio when he was ignored.
I'm sorry,but you are talking utter bollox.
It is airmanship,pure and simple.
ATC tried to drop hints that he was the only aircraft not deicing,we tried to tell him.
It's a no-brainer.If you have any deposits on the upper wing surfaces,you deice.This guy was COVERED in snow,and it was falling continuously and moderately.
So you'd rather we not speak up and watch as 300 punters plough into the sea !!
As to concentrating on our own aircraft,we were but nothing more could be done whilst we waited for our own deicing rigs to eventually turn up.
We weren't made to look stupid on the radio-if you think trying to help out a fellow professional pilot made me look stupid,then I guess you need to work hard at your homework to get on in this world.
I'm not going to get into a slanging match with the usual PPrune sados.
It may be wrong for me to post up here about this guy,but for him to ignore all advice/hits/warnings from other aviators and ATC is bloody disgraceful and dangerous.
Bye.
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IMHO
Right call LTD - Safety 1st, 2nd and 3rd. There will still be enough accidents for the statistics even if safety also comes 4th 5th and 6th..... Don't forget Murphy is at large at all airports and everywhere in between as well, and he works for all companies! 
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Read my post again.
Never questionned your airmanship, agreed it was a good call to mention it on the atc freq. Never suggested you dont speak up, u did and as far as you know a conversation ensued that came to an agreement not to deice. What deicing had he already received? what was the subsequent holdover time? Didnt suggest you were miffed but was meant to suggest thats why you posted such an emotively titled thread.
As for talking bollux, sir I'm entitled to my opinion even if it is one that differs to yours. No need to be irrational, next you'll be suggesting a colleague in a neighbouring aircraft that has a different opinion to you is a cowboy. If you feel as strongly as you obviously do about this situation there are more appropriate channels to go through than publically criticising a fellow professional crew without knowing the facts.
Never questionned your airmanship, agreed it was a good call to mention it on the atc freq. Never suggested you dont speak up, u did and as far as you know a conversation ensued that came to an agreement not to deice. What deicing had he already received? what was the subsequent holdover time? Didnt suggest you were miffed but was meant to suggest thats why you posted such an emotively titled thread.
As for talking bollux, sir I'm entitled to my opinion even if it is one that differs to yours. No need to be irrational, next you'll be suggesting a colleague in a neighbouring aircraft that has a different opinion to you is a cowboy. If you feel as strongly as you obviously do about this situation there are more appropriate channels to go through than publically criticising a fellow professional crew without knowing the facts.