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Old 30th Sep 2006, 08:06   #21 (permalink)
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Very sad indeed!

One has got to wonder how two TCAS equiped aircraft
can have a mid-air? Wonder if the weather had a part
to play in this? Maybe Cb's?

Guess we wont know for a while.

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Old 30th Sep 2006, 08:22   #22 (permalink)
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Routing suggests the Legacy would cross the 73 from left to right. For the Legacy to sustain surviveable wing damage in a collision with a 737 it seems likely to be a collision with the vertical stabilizer on the 73. Height of speculation I know, but just trying to think it through in my own mind. Then again, if sensible garage is right

Is this area of Brazil very remote, i.e. not under radar coverage?

Last edited by TooL8; 30th Sep 2006 at 08:23. Reason: Sensible garage posting!
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 09:10   #23 (permalink)
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Brazilian Jet Missing Over Amazon Jungle

CORRECTS PLANE TYPE TO 737-800 ** MICHAEL ASTOR (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
September 30, 2006 2:28 AM EDT
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - A Brazilian jetliner with 155 people aboard was reported missing Friday over the Amazon jungle, aviation authorities said.

Initially, officials said they believed Gol airlines flight 1907 had collided with a smaller plane after leaving the jungle city of Manaus in the remote southwestern region of Para state. News reports said the plane struck a Brazilian-made Legacy, a smaller executive jet.

But authorities later said they were no longer certain the disappearance was caused by a collision with a private jet as they earlier maintained.

"During the afternoon, there was another incident with a Legacy airplane, made by Embraer," federal aviation authorities said in a statement issued early Saturday morning. "It is impossible to confirm that there is a relation between the incident which caused the (Legacy) crew to perform an emergency landing in Cachimbo and the disappearance of the Gol airplane."

Initially, authorities reported the collision was near the Serra do Cachimbo region in Para state but the Legacy managed to land at the Cachimbo base despite suffering damage. The aviation agency said the plane disappeared about 130 miles south of the city of Cachimbo, some 1,250 miles northwest of Rio de Janeiro.

The jetliner had been scheduled to make a stop in Brasilia before heading to Rio's Antonio Tom Jobim International Airport. Manaus is a major river city in the heart of the Amazon rainforest some 1,700 miles northwest of Rio.

Brazilian airport authority President Jose Carlos Pereira said five air force planes were searching for the missing Boeing 737 in a densely forested region and would continue to search through the night.

On Friday evening, Gol issued a brief statement confirming the plane's disappearance.

"GOL informs that flight 1907, that today left the Manaus airport at 15:35 (Brasilia time) this Friday, and was scheduled to arrive at the Brasilia airport at 18:12, has not had its landing confirmed until this moment. We are awaiting information from officials of the aviation authorities about the flight," the statement said.

Gol said there were 155 people aboard, 149 passengers and six crew members.

Pereira said in an interview with CBN radio that a local farmer reported seeing a large plane flying low.

According to the Globo news agency, some 70 family members and friends of the victims had been moved to a warehouse owned by Gol at the Brasilia airport to await news.

Seven passengers were scheduled to disembark in Rio, where airport officials had put those waiting to greet them in a separate room.

Sergio Misaci, 47, said his brother Lazaro, 58, was aboard the flight from Manaus and traveling to Brasilia to celebrate their mother's 80th birthday.

"I have all the hope in the world. We have to root for them and have faith in God," Misaci said, adding that he had lived in Manaus for six years and was sure they would not find the plane for at least 24 hours.

"The trees there are 50 and 60 meters (yards) high and you can't see anything," he said before returning home to rest for the evening.

The flight between Manaus and Rio is popular with foreign tourists but there was no immediate word on the nationalities of those aboard.

The Embraer Legacy 600 is a Brazilian-made executive jet that carries up to 16 passengers.

The Estado news agency quoted Col. Ramon Bueno, head of regional flight protection in Sao Paulo, as saying the Legacy was piloted by an U.S. citizen who had left from the airport in Sao Jose dos Campos, near Sao Paulo. The Legacy suffered damaged to its wing and tail.

He told the news agency a mid-air collision was "inexplicable."

"The two planes are very modern and have anti-collision systems, which sound an alarm to alert the plane to any obstacle," Bueno told Estado.

Bueno told Estado that if there were no survivors, it could be the worst air accident ever in Brazil. The worst to date occurred in 1982 when a Vasp 747 crashed in the northeastern city of Fortaleza, killing 137 people.

The accident occurred in the same region where a Varig 737-200 crashed in 1989 with 54 people aboard with 46 survivors.

It was the first major incident for Gol Linhas Aereas Intelligentes SA, an upstart Brazilian airline that took to the skies in 2001 with just six Boeing 737s in 2001, serving seven Brazilian cities.


Associated Press Writers Tales Azzoni and Alan Clendenning contributed to this report from Sao Paulo.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 10:10   #24 (permalink)

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I'm also very suspicious in believing that a Embraer in its light way of construction could bring down a solid built Boeing.
Think kinetic energy, not size/construction. Airliner fuselages are designed to be damage tolerant but aren't built to withstand high energy impacts. I'd say a full impact could be devastating. I'd imagine that even a clip could lead to loss of control and serious damage.

I think it's too early to speculate, as hard as that often is. The details will become apparent soon enough.

Thoughts are with the friends and families of the passengers.

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Old 30th Sep 2006, 10:35   #25 (permalink)
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..can anyone provide an aeronautical chart of the area?
.. light MAC damage could cripple a large aircraft (flight deck, empennage) without fatal damage to the other aircraft (outboard wing, non-critical areas of the fuselage)!
TCAS/TXPDR (serviceability) ????
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 11:12   #26 (permalink)
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TCAS/TXPDR (serviceability) ????
More to the point, pilot compliance with RA (Think 757/Tupolov, JAL near miss.)
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 11:37   #27 (permalink)
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That area has radar control – Amazonico Center - after implementation of SIVAM and it’s been better than some years ago… BUT, I’m not sure if radar coverage AND two-way VHF radio communication have been in service without restrictions. It is not unusual to find out some problems with both. After flying for those routes several times in my life I get used to hear the same controller’s voice on different frequencies including airplanes flying on the same route using different frequencies as well. And also communication in English can be very difficult under situation beyond routine.
The worst to date occurred in 1982 when a Vasp 747 crashed…
In fact it was a B727-200.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 11:46   #28 (permalink)
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…. after Lake Constance, crew’s would not second guess TCAS RA’s …. would they??
… wonder if either was climbing or descending at high rate??
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 12:17   #29 (permalink)
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Maybe TCAS inop, ignored, or incorrectly actioned. Wait for the report.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 12:42   #30 (permalink)
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The accident occurred just about halfway between Manaus and Brasilia (a 1,200 mile leg) so it would appear that the aircraft were on reciprocal courses, well into cruise and that if either or both of them were climbing or descending it would have been due to weather.

Local news reports said that the Legacy was cleared to fl 330 and the 737 to 360.

The Legacy landed at Cachimbo airforce base which can be seen clearly on Google Earth at 09-20-09 South 54-58-03 West. The accident coordinates provided by a radio amateur last night, based on a farmer's eyewitness account, were 09-47-58 South 53-39-35 West. It is extremely remote but there are small towns and quite a lot of land has been cleared. "Cleared" does not necessarily mean turned into flat farmland, just deforested leaving stumps. The remaining forest, and there's lots of it, is very tall and dense. At the time of the accident there would still have been light.

Re news reports not confirming the collision theory, they are just that, advice that the cause of the accident has not been confirmed as a mid-air.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 13:00   #31 (permalink)
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News now saying that the Legacy pilot confirmed he collided with "something" but cannot confirm it was the Gol aircraft. According to the same news, the aircraft has not been found yet.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 13:38   #32 (permalink)
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I would have thought there are a multitude of ways in which a small a/c could bring down a bigger one, however well built, and sustain relatively "minor" damage itself. Apart from the obvious immediate failures that may occur to important bits like control surfaces from a glancing blow at cruising speed we don't know what might have happened to the bits of wing which separated from the Embraer. Were they ingested by one of the B737 engines? Etc etc etc.

I'm assuming this accident was caused by a mid-air, which it seems is not yet clear.

Anyone know if there was any comms with the Boeing after the problem occurred?
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 13:47   #33 (permalink)
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Brazil rescue planes find wreckage of passenger jet
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil, Sept 30 (Reuters) - Rescue planes
on Saturday found the wreckage of a Brazilian passenger jet
that disappeared the previous day with 155 people aboard over
the Amazon jungle, Brazil's airport authority said.
It said the crash site was found in Mato Grosso state "in
an area of difficult access". No further information was
immediately available.

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Old 30th Sep 2006, 14:05   #34 (permalink)
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Wreckage of airliner missing in Brazil found


SAO PAULO, Brazil (CNN) -- The wreckage of the Boeing 737-800 airliner that disappeared over dense Amazon rainforest in Brazil with 155 people on board has been found, a Gol Airlines spokesman said Saturday.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 14:06   #35 (permalink)
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POB was corrected down to 145 in the latest reports.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 14:10   #36 (permalink)
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That would be the first accident of a next generation 737. Right?

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Old 30th Sep 2006, 14:33   #37 (permalink)
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I think the southwest airlines accident in Midway last winter was a next gen. It was a 737-700.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 14:38   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by weasil View Post
I think the southwest airlines accident in Midway last winter was a next gen. It was a 737-700.
yes, it was. But this one is the first hull loss for an NG. News now saying there are no signs of survivals. Very sad. And if true, this is the worst accident ever in Brazil. Aircraft had only 200 hours of flying, delivered new to Gol on Sep12.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 15:06   #39 (permalink)
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Beyond being incredably sad it is quite alarming. Obviously we will give the investigators time to sort things out but I'm sure we'll all hope to learn something from the unfortunate and tragic event in the jungle.
As world air traffic rises we seem forced to depend more and more on high tech and ATS to avoid these problems, especially in target rich envirnments so to hear of such a tragedy in a remote area of the Amazon is most disturbing.
Does anyone know if this is a busy area? Was it a military EMB or US Bizjet?
Guess theres still so much more to learn. Hearts out to the folks in Brazil and at GOL.
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Old 30th Sep 2006, 15:10   #40 (permalink)
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if it crossed the path of the 737 and lost a wingtip, then the tip probably hit the nose or the fin of the boeing. I suppose it could possibly survive a hit to the fin but probably not to the nose.
So sad.
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