Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Excel B767 and bmibaby B737 collision at Manchester

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Excel B767 and bmibaby B737 collision at Manchester

Old 5th Nov 2004, 22:51
  #61 (permalink)  

Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't think apportioning blame is appropriate until the AAIB report is available.
bagpuss lives is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2004, 22:53
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question

Aren't we all missing the point.

EVERYONE on both aircraft is okay.

What actually happened will come out in the enquiry.

Who cares about Piers Morgan and his 'News'paper.
alterego is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 06:08
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: England.
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't think apportioning blame is appropriate.......
Try telling that to the "management" of one of the companies involved. (sorry, can't say Which Wone). Guilty until proven guilty could be the motto.
acbus1 is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 07:31
  #64 (permalink)  
High Wing Drifter
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Thanks Danny.

The incident seems similar to something I covered in during my ATPL theory studies called "Swept Wing Growth". A Human Factors phenomenon due to the pilot's eye position relative to the wing resulting in wing clearance distances being incredibly difficult to judge with the general effect that the distance is usually under estimated.
 
Old 6th Nov 2004, 08:16
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Roach...
There have over the years been a few incidents like this. I have always said that No. 1 at the hold should be as far forward as possible to allow A/C to taxi behind. Maybe on this one the 737 was still moving and the other A/C just misjudged it.
Disagree somewhat. Some Holding Points are extremely close to the runway, and the variables of Weather and crews / types, mean I for one am sometimes content to "hang back" a few yards.

Assuming Danny's diagram is correct, then the 737 has the "right" to stop wherever he wants - after all he might have a problem and need to stop. ATC structure taxi patterns on aircraft size, and therefore know what can (and cannot) get past. But at the end of the day, it is the pilot's judgement whether he can get past.

If you want to pontificate about this all day study:
AAIB Report where a Gulf Air (I think) A340 made an A340 winglet shaped hole in a BA 757 Rudder at LHR. Specifically:
Measurements taken after the incident showed that the nose landing gear of G-BIKG was 23.6 metres (along the taxiway centreline) behind the CAT I stop bar and 8.6 metres ahead of the CAT II/III stop bar. Profiles of the two aircraft imposed on a plan view of the taxiways and holding area are shown below. The diagram shows that, with G-BIKG in its measured position and A40-LB in its final position, the contact measured on the winglet and rudder would have occurred with A40-LB on its taxiway centreline at the point of contact.
Ten minutes before the collision, the Boeing 757 had been instructed to "HOLD FOR BLOCK 18". The co-pilot parked the aircraft with the flight deck beyond the Cat II/III hold line but short of the Cat I hold line. The commander was content with this parking position. He stated (correctly) that the hold line represents a limit not a target and no part of the aircraft should protrude over the line which was painted diagonally across the taxiway. He was also anxious not to get too close to the runway because aircraft departing from the full length would pass close to his aircraft and, should they encounter any directional control problems, he would be unable to get out of their way. The AAIB were unable to find any UK documentation requiring or encouraging pilots to pull forward to the limit of a holding position.
Those "blame" merchants who want someone to hang / criticise on here will be disappointed that nobody got shot after this - just a load of recommendations, one of which we shall hear for evermore about wingtip clearance on LHR ATIS. And which we will presumably shortly also hear on MAN ATIS
NigelOnDraft is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 10:20
  #66 (permalink)  
MOR
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Alberts Growbag

Perhaps you need to get a life! If you have a clearance to proceed along a taxiway, it is implicit that you have the room to do so unless advised otherwise - particularly where there is SMR in operation. The only exception to this should be when the ground controller advises caution when taxiing due to other aircraft - THEN the responsibility passes to the pilot. Otherwise, the ground controller is responsible for separation. Maybe LHR Director can confirm.

You try and judge accurately, in the dark, the relative positions of your wingtip and another aircraft's stabiliser. It is virtually impossible.

Can you even see the wingtip from the cockpit of a 767?
MOR is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 10:23
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London,England
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There are some responsibilities that we as aircraft commanders cannot avoid I'm afraid and ensuring the clearance of your aircraft as it passes another on the ground is one of them. Assuming there was no technical failure of the steering etc. then unfortunately, regardless of the clearance, taxiway markings and position of the other aircraft etc. the Captain of the moving aircraft has to take responsibility for it, it's what you sign up for when you sit in the left seat and there is no getting away from it.
Max Angle is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 10:27
  #68 (permalink)  

aka Capt PPRuNe
 
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

A reliable 'source' has informed me that the B737 was actually holding at Sierra 2 (the CATII/III hold) and not at Tango 1 as I depicted in my original diagram (since updated). So, we can deduce that the B737 was NOT at the T1 holding point which would have allowed enough clearance for the B767 to pass behind.

Not sure which type of B767 was involved but I know that the wingtips of the B767-300 are NOT visible at all from the flight deck.
Danny is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 10:37
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Danny...

I seem to remember we could see the 767 wingtips on the -300? The 757 (-200) not so according to the book, but in fact just visible - but not from a point of view of assessing a collision risk... And I think some spotter pointed out that the 757 cockpit interior changed at some point altering this. And you can always open the window if in doubt and lean out. This was BA SOP at BAK for a short while (2 x Marshaller / Wing tip walker, P2 hang out of window to avoid the IL-whatevers).

Whatever, I don't think it's relevant. Whether you can see them or not, it's still your responsibility if you clout something. See the AAIB report above for the woolly regs.

I'm all for not casting blame, but one person looks a little like #1 candidate to discuss matters with. I just hope the AAIB can come up with a nice "nobody's fault" like the AAIB report above
NigelOnDraft is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 10:56
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
MOR,

You are way off the mark. The Ground Controller is responsible for assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft moving on the apron and manoeuvring area, whether Surface Movement Radar is available or not. A clearance to proceed along a taxiway does not imply that there is sufficient room for aircraft to safely pass each other. The ultimate responsibility for avoiding ground collisions must always belong to the pilot. How can Controllers situated several hundred metres away be expected to judge safe wingtip clearances? Max Angle is spot on.
ATCO Two is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 11:20
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
just an observation

Here I am sat in the hotel foyer and surfing Pprune when my faith is restored.

Quite often on here I ask myself why some threads disintergrate into (what I consider) unprofessional trash and back biting.

Then I come across some contributions of the standard above. Professionals discussing their thoughts on an incident with a down to earth and considered attitude.

I sometimes wonder why I bothered to join the professional flying community, but knowing there are the likes of some wise owls who have contributed above makes me glad I have.

Sorry if its off the subject but I felt like saying it.

Cheers
GLADTOBEONE is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 11:43
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
An interesting fact or two from my "source" :

The BMI 737 was instructed to hold "in turn at T1", behind another aircraft. When that first aircraft lined up 24L, the BMI did not seem to pull forward and was most certainly not at the T1 stop bar when the impact occurred, as it should have been. So, technically speaking, the aircraft was holding T1, not S2 or anywhere else for that matter.

The crossing XLA was on it's way to V5 as Danny has shown in that excellent diagram.

ATC cannot be expected to ensure wing clearance is given on every part of the airfield, that responsibility falls surely to the aircraft commander? The clearances given in this case were, I feel, safe.

The holding point at T1 is easily separated from the adjacent taxiways for the aircraft types in question.

The AAIB went to town on the scene, releasing the runway back to us only at 2am-ish, so expect a nice, clear, report from them, as usual. I'll withold any final conclusion or comment until then as, frankly, we all make mistakes
G-BEJE is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 12:07
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Two hundred baro
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The 767 was a -200. The wingtips are not visible from the flight deck. It was taxiing at 6 knots when the wing hit the 737, and it's nosewheel was to the right of the taxiway centreline, further from the 737. It was also turning, giving the impression that the gap between the aircraft was increasing. The Captain ot he 767 is highly experienced. Rather than trying to blame anyone, the company wants to find out how and why and it happened.
Why people like Justin Abeaver think this is a good oppurtunity to have a dig at Air Atlanta is beyond me. Perhaps they wouldn't give him a job? Air Atlanta Europe is a seperate operation to Air Atlanta Iceland, although all 757/767 crewing is handled by Excel. Calling people "Icelandic pikeys" shows the author to be racist, xenophobic and historically ignorant.
CAT1 is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 12:07
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Reichstag
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Quote by MOR:

"Alberts Growbag

Perhaps you need to get a life! If you have a clearance to proceed along a taxiway, it is implicit that you have the room to do so unless advised otherwise - particularly where there is SMR in operation. The only exception to this should be when the ground controller advises caution when taxiing due to other aircraft - THEN the responsibility passes to the pilot. Otherwise, the ground controller is responsible for separation. Maybe LHR Director can confirm."

Absolutely NEVER does responsibility pass from the aircraft commander to ATC or anyone else, on the ground or in the air. A commander can coose to ignore ATC altogether if there are circumstances which he/she feels would put safety at risk, otherwise, as has been said should you just fly into that high ground/taxi into that aircraft etc., the last words on the CVR being "I told you he/she was wrong!" because ATC said to do so? ATC are there to advise and give direction and you'd have to have good justification to ignore their instructions but a commander always has that choice.

ATC at MAN are superb on all frequencies and they do their very best but it would be impossible from the tower to see what transpired let alone control it. Similarly, there are always other factors to take into account - anyone (who actually flies commercially) remember the "Swiss Cheese" from CRM? Rest assured there will not be a straight forward - "He's to blame", nor should there be.

The main point has been made - everyone is okay. Next point, what can be learned to avoid this happening again? Final and least important point, did anyone ignore ignore procedures already in place?

Regarding the press, they are indeed a fact of life, love them or loathe them.

As a final note - it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for an aircraft taking off from 24L to hit an aircraft's tail with its LEFT wingtip, as has been shown by Danny. Also, what the diagram doesn't show is that the taxiway intersections end just to the left of Danny's drawing so again, "We were halfway down the runway" is physically impossible and pure fiction. As for "skidding all over place" - errrm, I don't think so as Anti-skid brakes prevent that too!

Just my 2p worth. And yes, I am a commercial aircraft commander so I do know a bit about it.
Norman Goering is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 12:20
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Two hundred baro
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
2p is about all that was worth.
CAT1 is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 12:21
  #76 (permalink)  
High Wing Drifter
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Perhaps you need to get a life! If you have a clearance to proceed along a taxiway, it is implicit that you have the room to do so unless advised otherwise
How do ATC determine of there is sufficient room?
 
Old 6th Nov 2004, 12:22
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I landed on 24R after the incident. For what it's worth, the 73 looked to be short of T1, but who can tell for sure except those actually on the scene? Perspective / angles etc. Thank goodness there were no injuries that we know of. Danny's diagram looks to be almost spot on.

Let's just wait and see what the inquiry brings.


If it's a bus though, it hardly raises an eyebrow in the press, even though there were injuries (allegedly.....):

From May 1998:

"A bus ferrying passengers between a plane and Terminal Two collided with a plane, injuring several passengers. The wing of the Onur Air MD88 broke the windscreen of the bus, missing the driver's head by inches. Airport authorities the didn't know how the accident had happened, and said an inquiry into the incident will be launched. Thank goodness the accident was only minor - the injured passengers, taken to Wythenshawe Hospital, were only slightly hurt."
Darbo is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 13:35
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: min rest
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
After a ground collision between two aircraft such as this the QRH and company SOPs says to do What?
Wait to be told one or both of you are on fire then evacuate?
Or Immediately evacuate to give your passengers extra time before the fire develops?
Evacuate 255 and crew pus the 737 and crew into a busy area close to the active runways and mix them into the arriving fire trucks?
Popular opinion is pilots are just drivers they plug in the autopilot and actually do nothying, the ground staff are incharge on the ground and you are airborne.
ATCservice of years past by necessity is today air trafic control and this influences pilots to think that like so many aspects of the job today you only need to follow instructions to the letter to be safe. Individuals who think airmanship independently outside the box seem to be progressively being screened out.
Captains should realise basically everyone out there and the system is trying to kill them and it is the one they do not see that gets them.
What a lot of luck you need in this job...A captain is legally responsible to the extent of his worldwide wealth for the safety of his flight. Glad I invested mine in wild women,booze,and slow horses,the rest I wasted!
scanscanscan is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 14:53
  #79 (permalink)  
MOR
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Norman Goering and others

The design of the taxiways and hold points is such that clearances are ensured for the aircraft that use them. The point of the yellow line you follow, is that if you are on it, lateral clearances are ensured - assuming that everybody else is doing as they are told.

Or do you perhaps believe that the taxiway you are pushed back onto may not ensure that you clear the tails of all the aircraft that you pass as you taxi out? The idea is clearly absurd.

Now, please explain to me how, if you cannot even see your wingtip, you can ensure a lateral clearance? Do you send the F/O out with a tape measure?

And finally, for those who do not seem to know the rules, I offer the following:

CAP493 1.2.2

"In order to execute his duties an aerodrome controller has authority over aircraft, vehicles and personnel on the manoeuvring area and aircraft moving on the apron."

In other words, a taxi clearance is essentially no different to a takeoff clearance .

Nobody is suggesting blindly taxiing into collisions... that is absurd.

See also CAP168 7.6.1 for an explanation of taxiway clearances, if you can be bothered.

High Wing Drifter

The controller doesn't need to know per se , it is the inbuilt clearances in the design of the manoeuvring area markings that ensure lateral clearances (if everyone is going where they are told to go).

So, for example, if you are taxiing at CDG on the parallel taxiways (such as B and Q), you know that no matter what is taxiing the other way, as long as you are both on your centrelines, you can't hit each other. Controllers know if there is a clearance issue for certain types on specific taxiways, and separate them accordingly (Birmingham being a good example). See CAP168 7.6.1, as mentioned above, for more info (or if you have trouble sleeping).

Last edited by MOR; 6th Nov 2004 at 15:29.
MOR is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2004, 17:02
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
captain marvellous

As I said in my post, the BMI 737 would have been more than adequately seperated from the taxiing 767 if it had of pulled forward to the T1 stop bar.

Instead the 737 had indeed stopped some way short of the holding point for whatever reason - when the aircraft ahead lined up the 737 did not fully pull forward.
G-BEJE is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.