Which is the best helicopter for training?
Charlie
You are best off learning in a piston powered ac, it will give you much more respect for machines that are closer to their power margins Will also be considerably cheaper.
As for the turbines remember everyone is a compromise.
Gazelle, expensive to run, very agile
120 very expensive to run, too fat
130 "
206 excellent but slow and a bit fat relatively cheap to run
500 most agile and fun, very quick but very small for pax cheap to run
350 very expensive but ticks a lot of boxes !
You are best off learning in a piston powered ac, it will give you much more respect for machines that are closer to their power margins Will also be considerably cheaper.
As for the turbines remember everyone is a compromise.
Gazelle, expensive to run, very agile
120 very expensive to run, too fat
130 "
206 excellent but slow and a bit fat relatively cheap to run
500 most agile and fun, very quick but very small for pax cheap to run
350 very expensive but ticks a lot of boxes !
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oxford
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you aren't sure what to buy, then it seems probably you may end up needing to do a type rating for what you finally get anyway, so you may as well learn in a small piston helicopter.
If you already have decided on a particular helicopter, however, you could always buy it first and learn in your own vehicle.
Personally, I'd suggest getting your PPL first, then you would have the freedom to find instructors/schools willing to give you a test flight where you can get the feel for the 120, 130, Gazelle, 206 etc. before making a decision.
One thing to keep in mind, the EC 120 and Gazelle both have a fenestron tail rotor. A standard tail rotor responds more linearly to pedal inputs, whereas a fenestron doesn't respond much to initial pedal input and then responds quite quickly.
Also the EC 120 (and I think the Gazelle) have the main rotor turning clockwise (European standard) rather than anti-clockwise (US standard) - you need to make the opposite pedal inputs (left pedal where you would use right etc.) when you move between the two.
This does mean if you learn in a R22 (anticlockwise, standard tail rotor) it may take you a little longer to get used to the pedals in a EC 120/130 (both in terms of which foot to use, and how much input to use), whereas if you learn in a Cabri G2 (clockwise, fenestron) it will be a little easier.
To be honest, moving between fenestron and tail rotors, and between US/EU main rotor direction feels a little strange at first but isn't that difficult (at worst, it may add an hour or two to the type rating training). Its mainly an issue for professionals who have to fly both on a regular basis, as it can be easy to temporarily forget which you are flying.
Matthew
If you already have decided on a particular helicopter, however, you could always buy it first and learn in your own vehicle.
Personally, I'd suggest getting your PPL first, then you would have the freedom to find instructors/schools willing to give you a test flight where you can get the feel for the 120, 130, Gazelle, 206 etc. before making a decision.
One thing to keep in mind, the EC 120 and Gazelle both have a fenestron tail rotor. A standard tail rotor responds more linearly to pedal inputs, whereas a fenestron doesn't respond much to initial pedal input and then responds quite quickly.
Also the EC 120 (and I think the Gazelle) have the main rotor turning clockwise (European standard) rather than anti-clockwise (US standard) - you need to make the opposite pedal inputs (left pedal where you would use right etc.) when you move between the two.
This does mean if you learn in a R22 (anticlockwise, standard tail rotor) it may take you a little longer to get used to the pedals in a EC 120/130 (both in terms of which foot to use, and how much input to use), whereas if you learn in a Cabri G2 (clockwise, fenestron) it will be a little easier.
To be honest, moving between fenestron and tail rotors, and between US/EU main rotor direction feels a little strange at first but isn't that difficult (at worst, it may add an hour or two to the type rating training). Its mainly an issue for professionals who have to fly both on a regular basis, as it can be easy to temporarily forget which you are flying.
Matthew
Last edited by mdovey; 3rd Jan 2014 at 08:57.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ex-Krantanamo Bay Inmate
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which is the best helicopter for training?
Hi All,
I'm new to the rotor heads forum, but have a couple of questions about R22 vs G2, and can hopefully get a broad range of advice on here.
I am very much an absolute beginner with a 1 hour trial lesson on the R22 completed and nothing else.
I am looking to do my licences and be in a position to start a second career as a helicopter pilot in approximately 9 years when I leave the RAF. I am aircrew but not a pilot.
Firstly, is there likely to be much work out there for G2 instructors in the future, or is it likely the R22 will remain the most popular training option in the UK?
Would someone who had mostly G2 hours be considered as an R22 instructor with minimum hours and quals on the latter?
Would someone who trained on a G2 find it harder to convert to older airframe types? Eg non glass cockpit etc
Thanks in advance for your time.
I'm new to the rotor heads forum, but have a couple of questions about R22 vs G2, and can hopefully get a broad range of advice on here.
I am very much an absolute beginner with a 1 hour trial lesson on the R22 completed and nothing else.
I am looking to do my licences and be in a position to start a second career as a helicopter pilot in approximately 9 years when I leave the RAF. I am aircrew but not a pilot.
Firstly, is there likely to be much work out there for G2 instructors in the future, or is it likely the R22 will remain the most popular training option in the UK?
Would someone who had mostly G2 hours be considered as an R22 instructor with minimum hours and quals on the latter?
Would someone who trained on a G2 find it harder to convert to older airframe types? Eg non glass cockpit etc
Thanks in advance for your time.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Escrick York england
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bladecrack. On your post below What certain restrictions are you referring to on flying ex mil gazelles for ppl flight that cause problems?
. The Gazelle is a different kettle of fish as there are few civilian versions about, and ex-mil versions have certain restrictions regarding use and carrying passengers etc.
. The Gazelle is a different kettle of fish as there are few civilian versions about, and ex-mil versions have certain restrictions regarding use and carrying passengers etc.
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: earth
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The R44 is best if you are filthy stinking rich and plan on buying a helicopter afterwards to fly around for fun with more than one passenger.
Find a school with a Cabri instead.
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: earth
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi All,
I'm new to the rotor heads forum, but have a couple of questions about R22 vs G2, and can hopefully get a broad range of advice on here.
I am very much an absolute beginner with a 1 hour trial lesson on the R22 completed and nothing else.
I am looking to do my licences and be in a position to start a second career as a helicopter pilot in approximately 9 years when I leave the RAF. I am aircrew but not a pilot.
Firstly, is there likely to be much work out there for G2 instructors in the future, or is it likely the R22 will remain the most popular training option in the UK?
Would someone who had mostly G2 hours be considered as an R22 instructor with minimum hours and quals on the latter?
Would someone who trained on a G2 find it harder to convert to older airframe types? Eg non glass cockpit etc
Thanks in advance for your time.
I'm new to the rotor heads forum, but have a couple of questions about R22 vs G2, and can hopefully get a broad range of advice on here.
I am very much an absolute beginner with a 1 hour trial lesson on the R22 completed and nothing else.
I am looking to do my licences and be in a position to start a second career as a helicopter pilot in approximately 9 years when I leave the RAF. I am aircrew but not a pilot.
Firstly, is there likely to be much work out there for G2 instructors in the future, or is it likely the R22 will remain the most popular training option in the UK?
Would someone who had mostly G2 hours be considered as an R22 instructor with minimum hours and quals on the latter?
Would someone who trained on a G2 find it harder to convert to older airframe types? Eg non glass cockpit etc
Thanks in advance for your time.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vietnam
Age: 63
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi.
I think G2 is simple and easy to make convert to any type aircraft. Because it equip with some glass cockpit. Also very simple Governor to control engine, it quite very nice when control aircraft compare with R22, you have to manual engine, more difficult. (I have about 300 hrs on G2). Nice and pretty helicopter.
https://www.facebook.com/vnht.com.vn...6nRIrmbrpYysak
I think G2 is simple and easy to make convert to any type aircraft. Because it equip with some glass cockpit. Also very simple Governor to control engine, it quite very nice when control aircraft compare with R22, you have to manual engine, more difficult. (I have about 300 hrs on G2). Nice and pretty helicopter.
https://www.facebook.com/vnht.com.vn...6nRIrmbrpYysak
It has a much higher inertia rotor - and much better autorotation characteristics than a R22.
It has 3 blades and a conventional rotor head so no mast-bumping or worries about low-g.
It was designed by a chap who was a top designer for Eurocopter.
Better handling and better safety - seems a no-brainer really.
And it has a proper cyclic!
It has 3 blades and a conventional rotor head so no mast-bumping or worries about low-g.
It was designed by a chap who was a top designer for Eurocopter.
Better handling and better safety - seems a no-brainer really.
And it has a proper cyclic!
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It has a much higher inertia rotor - and much better autorotation characteristics than a R22.
It has 3 blades and a conventional rotor head so no mast-bumping or worries about low-g.
It was designed by a chap who was a top designer for Eurocopter.
Better handling and better safety - seems a no-brainer really.
And it has a proper cyclic!
It has 3 blades and a conventional rotor head so no mast-bumping or worries about low-g.
It was designed by a chap who was a top designer for Eurocopter.
Better handling and better safety - seems a no-brainer really.
And it has a proper cyclic!
The R22 actually has excellent auto characteristics, as with all 2 blade helicopters. Just need to make sure you don’t daly getting the collective down and arrive with enough energy to finish the job off safely. Haven’t flown the G2, but it probably has safer entry and termination margins, but won’t hold a candle to a Robbie for glide. R44 for the record will perform like a B206/L: And has good energy margins in the blades.
TT
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a lot of the money spent on the Cabri design was the crash worthness in the event of a botched auto. It was proven during certification you can have an engine failure, lower the lever to the bottom and not raise it at all. Hit the ground at max rate of decent and live for another day. Airframe will be bent by you won’t be. Bruno designed this with night flying in mind, and it was the most expensive part of the certification due to crash tests required.
However, as others have said that should never be necessary as the RPM range for an auto is massive, with a head that can not be oversped.
However, as others have said that should never be necessary as the RPM range for an auto is massive, with a head that can not be oversped.
Torquetalk, I've done autos and EOLs in an R22 - autos are OK once you get the lever down but the Nr range for auto isn't very high (especially compared to the G2) and the EOL is very exciting (compared to 3-blade heads like Gazelle and Squirrel).
If the G2 has been certified in the way Maff says, that is far, far superior to either the 22 or 44.
As an instructor teaching ab-initio students I would be far happier with some room for student handling error in a Cabri than walking the tightrope that is the R22.
If the G2 has been certified in the way Maff says, that is far, far superior to either the 22 or 44.
As an instructor teaching ab-initio students I would be far happier with some room for student handling error in a Cabri than walking the tightrope that is the R22.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO, the best trainer depends on what you intend to do with your training, and how much money you have available.
If your ultimate goal is to be an R44 or R66 owner and/or operator, either commercially or only for private use, then obviously you want all of the Robinson time you can get.
Of course, there are many on this forum who would say that any aspirations to be a Robinson owner/operator are foolish, and if that is all you can afford you should just give up your dreams of helicopter flying right now and limit yourself to watching Youtube videos, because Robinsons are far too dangerous to fly
I do not count myself among them.
If your intent is to, somehow, transition directly into more expensive equipment, particularly Airbus models, and if you can afford the rental rates, the G2 may be a better option.
However...Robinsons still well outnumber the Cabris. Very few people are in a position to "transition directly into more expensive equipment". If you take the classical civilian path to helicopter glory, i.e. student > commercial > CFI > hour building as CFI > and so on, then you will have a much better chance of obtaining CFI/hour building positions in Robinson helicopters. In which case, again, you are going to want as many hours in Robinsons as possible.
Being US based where there are only a handful of Cabris, S300s and the like, obviously one tends to be forced to go with Robinson. I did have the opportunity to fly a Cabri for a couple of hours. FWIW, I liked it less than the R22 with three exceptions: it's plush, low-g pushovers are fun, and auto's are trivial compared to the R22. That last point is an important one. If I was a newly minted G2 pilot and had to transition to R22s for a CFI position, R22 auto's would no doubt come as a shock to the system. The reverse situation, i.e. being able to auto an R22, probably makes everything else seem easy.
If your ultimate goal is to be an R44 or R66 owner and/or operator, either commercially or only for private use, then obviously you want all of the Robinson time you can get.
Of course, there are many on this forum who would say that any aspirations to be a Robinson owner/operator are foolish, and if that is all you can afford you should just give up your dreams of helicopter flying right now and limit yourself to watching Youtube videos, because Robinsons are far too dangerous to fly
I do not count myself among them.
If your intent is to, somehow, transition directly into more expensive equipment, particularly Airbus models, and if you can afford the rental rates, the G2 may be a better option.
However...Robinsons still well outnumber the Cabris. Very few people are in a position to "transition directly into more expensive equipment". If you take the classical civilian path to helicopter glory, i.e. student > commercial > CFI > hour building as CFI > and so on, then you will have a much better chance of obtaining CFI/hour building positions in Robinson helicopters. In which case, again, you are going to want as many hours in Robinsons as possible.
Being US based where there are only a handful of Cabris, S300s and the like, obviously one tends to be forced to go with Robinson. I did have the opportunity to fly a Cabri for a couple of hours. FWIW, I liked it less than the R22 with three exceptions: it's plush, low-g pushovers are fun, and auto's are trivial compared to the R22. That last point is an important one. If I was a newly minted G2 pilot and had to transition to R22s for a CFI position, R22 auto's would no doubt come as a shock to the system. The reverse situation, i.e. being able to auto an R22, probably makes everything else seem easy.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, the school I chose is using R22 or R44 for training no Cabri option. i can afford 44, just like to know if training on it is so far better then 22 to justify higher epxense.
So please advise about that
Cheers
So please advise about that
Cheers
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hayling island
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You pays your money and take a choice, but what you should consider is what are you going to do once you get your licence, do you want to progress, can I self fly hire the helicopter etc
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: earth
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you plan on being a career pilot you "may" benefit from 25 hours in the R44 so you can teach in it,...if there are any students who can also afford it (they are few and far between).
If you want to "maybe" get on as a summer R44 tour pilot, then you'll need at least 50 hours in it (when you have 500 hours total time) but that R44 time should be as a paid CFII, not out of your own pocket!
I've got just over 100 hours in the R44 (all bought and paid for by me) and I can tell you that thing is a HUGE waste of money!
Go with the R22, its safe, reliable, and a lot of fun to fly,...especially after you kick out the extra weight (i.e. your instructor) and start flying solo!
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Torquetalk, I've done autos and EOLs in an R22 - autos are OK once you get the lever down but the Nr range for auto isn't very high (especially compared to the G2) and the EOL is very exciting (compared to 3-blade heads like Gazelle and Squirrel).
If the G2 has been certified in the way Maff says, that is far, far superior to either the 22 or 44.
As an instructor teaching ab-initio students I would be far happier with some room for student handling error in a Cabri than walking the tightrope that is the R22.
If the G2 has been certified in the way Maff says, that is far, far superior to either the 22 or 44.
As an instructor teaching ab-initio students I would be far happier with some room for student handling error in a Cabri than walking the tightrope that is the R22.
Liftman, the R22 reacts much more quickly than an R44 due to its mass. The R44 is quite sluggish in comparison. I would chose the R22 as it will help you be timely in your reactions, but will also quickly let you know if you are over controlling (!). Why not include 5 hours R44 towards a TR or the SFAR requirement?
TT
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However...if your plan is to teach, then you will almost certainly be teaching in the R22, in which case you will want to start with the R22 like almost everyone else.
The school here has a student who is quite large. He is paying for his private in an R44 because the R22 just isn't comfortable for him.