Unusual attitude recovery?
Thread Starter
Many thanks to those who supplied constructive answers to the questions (mighty gem, fijdor, flying binghi, ascend charlie, arm out the window) and to those who gave amusing anecdotes, useful insights, etc. Fewer thanks to the handful who took the question as an opportunity to wave their (presumably diminutive) body parts - one in particular who I've now blocked. Just because you think it's a silly question, doesn't mean that I - or my friend - are about to go and do stupid things. But then, this is Pprune.
Yes, it is pprune and it is the internet - however your original question was rather vague and you never stipulated how you might 'find' yourself at 45 - 60 degrees nose up - that doesn't happen unless you are experimenting or seriously not paying attention.
Remember the term Unusual Attitude is usually reserved for instrument flight.
If I was VMC I would turn it into a wingover but IMC push the nose forward with power applied.
Remember the term Unusual Attitude is usually reserved for instrument flight.
If I was VMC I would turn it into a wingover but IMC push the nose forward with power applied.
Thread Starter
To be honest I have no idea how you could find yourself at that kind of angle in a heli (or gyrocopter for that matter, which is what my friend is really interested in). It was more of a theoretical question. I know what to do in a plane, but really not sure in a heli or GC. Seems to me barring some major upset (and I'm sure you're right that wake turbulence enough to do that would do some serious damage), the only way you'd get there would be by not paying attention for quite a while - as you say.
When I did VFR seriously-unusual attitude training (in an aerobatic aircraft) the way we got to 60° nose up was simple enough. My instructor pulled us through the first 60° of a loop then said "open your eyes and recover". Not sure I know anyone who'd do that in a heli... (btw that training - though not specifically this item - probably did save my life when I got caught in a lee-side rotor).
Anyway thanks for all the answers.
When I did VFR seriously-unusual attitude training (in an aerobatic aircraft) the way we got to 60° nose up was simple enough. My instructor pulled us through the first 60° of a loop then said "open your eyes and recover". Not sure I know anyone who'd do that in a heli... (btw that training - though not specifically this item - probably did save my life when I got caught in a lee-side rotor).
Anyway thanks for all the answers.
Last edited by n5296s; 6th Oct 2017 at 06:55.
I had a look for the prang i mentioned in prior post...
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200104092.aspx
Here's the wikipedia reference. As always, i don't trust wikicrap though it reads roughly what i remember:
"...Strachan was killed in a helicopter accident on 29 August 2001. He had been a fixed-wing pilot for many years and had been undergoing training for a helicopter pilot's licence, with a view to buying a helicopter and taking friends and family on surfing safaris. On a solo flight near Mount Archer, Queensland in clear weather and inexplicably off the course planned by his instructor, Strachan encountered mountain turbulence which caused the rotor of his Bell 47G to sever the tailboom, crashing the helicopter onto a mountain slope. The day Strachan died was, coincidentally, the day an ABC documentary episode on rock and roll in Australia, It's a long Way to the Top, that referenced the Skyhooks, aired on TV..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Strachan
.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200104092.aspx
Here's the wikipedia reference. As always, i don't trust wikicrap though it reads roughly what i remember:
"...Strachan was killed in a helicopter accident on 29 August 2001. He had been a fixed-wing pilot for many years and had been undergoing training for a helicopter pilot's licence, with a view to buying a helicopter and taking friends and family on surfing safaris. On a solo flight near Mount Archer, Queensland in clear weather and inexplicably off the course planned by his instructor, Strachan encountered mountain turbulence which caused the rotor of his Bell 47G to sever the tailboom, crashing the helicopter onto a mountain slope. The day Strachan died was, coincidentally, the day an ABC documentary episode on rock and roll in Australia, It's a long Way to the Top, that referenced the Skyhooks, aired on TV..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Strachan
.
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 6th Oct 2017 at 10:02. Reason: Found link
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,149
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
I remember Ken Kendall rushing into the office in Glasgow one day wanting several cups off coffee as he had been rolled in his 206 in turbulence somewhere in the highlands.... he said he was so glad he went with it rather than trying to fight it.
Had the same at SARTU in 1990 when one of the C Flight SAR pilots got turned almost inverted when hit by a massive updraught in the hover over Tryfan - fortunately before they put the winchman over the side of the Wessex.
He came in ashen faced wanting to talk to a QHI
He came in ashen faced wanting to talk to a QHI
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
he had been rolled in his 206 in turbulence somewhere in the highlands
From that time on coming back for fuel, I would slow down to a crawl and face the ridge at a 90deg angle not 45 deg and high speed before getting over it and down.
JD
Very easy to get into these positions and attitudes while teaching combat maneuvering flight. Vey common to be 50-60 degrees nose up and also rolled 120 degrees either side. Followed by 60 degrees down still inverted at 160 knots. All is well if done correctly, but the unusual attitude recovery I mentioned earlier is a great help when a 350 hour new guy makes a mistake, or just does "new guy" things. I do at least one UA demo during every CMF flight for this exact reason. Focusing on G loading, determining attitude, and how to manage aircraft and rotor energy to extract maximum performance during the recovery.
I hope you mention "Altitude(Height)" as well as Attitude.
Very true, it is incorporated in the training, but we typically start at an altitude high enough that it is not a factor for the new guys, haha. But yes, recovery arcs, altitude, power available, and a whole list of other topics go into a maneuvering flight ground training session prior to the flight, for everyone reading... none of these responses should be considered substitute for proper instruction!
get me a ticket to California and a Mk7 Lynx and I'll show you
FWIW.
I was slightly shocked reading some of the responses here, reference the unusual attitude recovery technique. After researching the topic further, I notice many references seem to confuse an Unusual Attitude Recovery procedure with an Inadvertent IMC (IIMC) encounter. The distinction is important, because IIMC does not necessarily imply an unusual attitude, and an unusual attitude doesn’t always imply IMC.
One deals with a potential, imminent or apparent loss of control, while the other assumes control is not in doubt, and is an aid to prevent an upset.
The typically quoted unusual attitude recovery procedure is more often the lengthier IIMC encounter procedure. It can be found in the FAA Helicopter Handbook, Chapter 12:
1. Attitude
2. Heading
3. Power
4. Airspeed
5. Trim
IMHO, the appropriate unusual attitude recovery procedure (the immediate action), is more akin to:
1. Attitude
2. Power
3. Trim
After regaining control, proceed if necessary with the detailed and lengthier IIMC procedure.
It appears many current US Army references combine the two procedures. Search for an older copy of an Army TC and you’ll find the distinction. I know, because I helped write many an older procedure.
“To recover from an unusual attitude, correct the pitch and bank attitude, adjust power, and trim the aircraft as required to return to level flight. All components are changed simultaneously with little lead of one over the other. The displacement of controls used in recoveries may be greater than those for normal flight. Care must be taken in making adjustments as straight-and-level flight is approached. The instruments must be observed closely to avoid overcontrolling.”
Some may call this splitting hairs. Point taken.
I was slightly shocked reading some of the responses here, reference the unusual attitude recovery technique. After researching the topic further, I notice many references seem to confuse an Unusual Attitude Recovery procedure with an Inadvertent IMC (IIMC) encounter. The distinction is important, because IIMC does not necessarily imply an unusual attitude, and an unusual attitude doesn’t always imply IMC.
One deals with a potential, imminent or apparent loss of control, while the other assumes control is not in doubt, and is an aid to prevent an upset.
The typically quoted unusual attitude recovery procedure is more often the lengthier IIMC encounter procedure. It can be found in the FAA Helicopter Handbook, Chapter 12:
1. Attitude
2. Heading
3. Power
4. Airspeed
5. Trim
IMHO, the appropriate unusual attitude recovery procedure (the immediate action), is more akin to:
1. Attitude
2. Power
3. Trim
After regaining control, proceed if necessary with the detailed and lengthier IIMC procedure.
It appears many current US Army references combine the two procedures. Search for an older copy of an Army TC and you’ll find the distinction. I know, because I helped write many an older procedure.
“To recover from an unusual attitude, correct the pitch and bank attitude, adjust power, and trim the aircraft as required to return to level flight. All components are changed simultaneously with little lead of one over the other. The displacement of controls used in recoveries may be greater than those for normal flight. Care must be taken in making adjustments as straight-and-level flight is approached. The instruments must be observed closely to avoid overcontrolling.”
Some may call this splitting hairs. Point taken.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Thaïland
Age: 67
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please take care, Gyro is not Helo.... If you have 60° nose up in Helo, simply push the the cyclique ...The rotor turn always
If you do that with a Gyro you are a dead man...the rotor will stop in less than 3 seconds....
On a Gyro, you have to load the rotor first ( straight turn and then nose down....
Good point BOBAKAT - most pilots know that loading the rotor will increase RRPM due to flare effect but, unless they have been shown it, probably don't know that the opposite happens too - unloading the rotor with a reduction in G reduces the RRPM markedly.
Since an autogyro is in permanent autorotation, reducing the Nr by shoving the stick forward would be very bad indeed.
Since an autogyro is in permanent autorotation, reducing the Nr by shoving the stick forward would be very bad indeed.
Thread Starter
The origin of this question is that my friend is looking at the CPL requirements for gyrocopter. Turns out they require 2.5 hrs of hood time (strange amount, half what's needed for a heli and half again for fixed wing), including unusual attitude recovery. Presumably that just means relatively gentle stuff under the hood. But it got him thinking about seriously unusual attitudes.
Thinking more about the dynamics of a GC I guess just holding back stick and keeping a careful eye on RRPM (just like a heli auto) ought to work. There's nowhere near enough lift to turn that into a loop, so the nose will slowly drop to a more normal attitude, and then you can just fly out of it. Does that make sense? (I'm not a GC pilot and have no particular ambition to be one, though it was fun the one time I tried it).
Thinking more about the dynamics of a GC I guess just holding back stick and keeping a careful eye on RRPM (just like a heli auto) ought to work. There's nowhere near enough lift to turn that into a loop, so the nose will slowly drop to a more normal attitude, and then you can just fly out of it. Does that make sense? (I'm not a GC pilot and have no particular ambition to be one, though it was fun the one time I tried it).