Bear Grylls & Helicopters
You know better than that Hughes'y.
A minority are aware of the risks around them, the majority believe what they see on TV therefore believe real life is like that too.
Have you lost a loved one? More specifically, have you lost someone close to you through sheer stupidity or ignorance. Have you thought "if only"?
Let me give you some examples:
White water rafting.
Paragliding.
Motor racing.
Base Jumping.
Free fall parachuting.
All of which are exciting, gung ho and every boy's dream adventure.
It's great entrhalling fun - until the wheel comes off.
It's when the parents, loved one, partner - turn round and start looking for someone to blame, to take their anger out on.
"No-one told us it would be THAT dangerous. No-one told us there was no safety rope/guide/exit.
All I am saying is that one should approach a hazard as one would approach anything worthwhile in life - responsibly. Look at the hazard, look at the risk, look at the frequency and outcome and THEN and only then consent (or otherwise) to proceed with that activity.
Then you have an idea of the true value of what you are about to do and no-one to blame if it goes horribly wrong.
I sincerely hope you don't lose anyone close - due to ignorance of an event or the risks it presents. A sad way to destroy one's life and the lives of all those who miss them, I guess.
I'm all for people like you and Grylls etc to 'flat line' at any time you so wish - fill your boots. Just don't take an innocent particiapnt with you, that's what "Informed Consent" is all about.
It's NOT about NOT doing anything dangerous, it's about being prepared and aware and weighing up the risk.
A handful of kids in the back of a small helicopter hovering over the water being thrown out - would that be a thrilling experience for my 12 year old boy - definitely. Would I allow it: probably not. Why not? I am a helicopter pilot by trade and know about the real risks and this mere fact outweighs the benefit my son will achieve. Would my wife allow it: You cannot be serious!
A minority are aware of the risks around them, the majority believe what they see on TV therefore believe real life is like that too.
Have you lost a loved one? More specifically, have you lost someone close to you through sheer stupidity or ignorance. Have you thought "if only"?
Let me give you some examples:
White water rafting.
Paragliding.
Motor racing.
Base Jumping.
Free fall parachuting.
All of which are exciting, gung ho and every boy's dream adventure.
It's great entrhalling fun - until the wheel comes off.
It's when the parents, loved one, partner - turn round and start looking for someone to blame, to take their anger out on.
"No-one told us it would be THAT dangerous. No-one told us there was no safety rope/guide/exit.
All I am saying is that one should approach a hazard as one would approach anything worthwhile in life - responsibly. Look at the hazard, look at the risk, look at the frequency and outcome and THEN and only then consent (or otherwise) to proceed with that activity.
Then you have an idea of the true value of what you are about to do and no-one to blame if it goes horribly wrong.
I sincerely hope you don't lose anyone close - due to ignorance of an event or the risks it presents. A sad way to destroy one's life and the lives of all those who miss them, I guess.
I'm all for people like you and Grylls etc to 'flat line' at any time you so wish - fill your boots. Just don't take an innocent particiapnt with you, that's what "Informed Consent" is all about.
It's NOT about NOT doing anything dangerous, it's about being prepared and aware and weighing up the risk.
A handful of kids in the back of a small helicopter hovering over the water being thrown out - would that be a thrilling experience for my 12 year old boy - definitely. Would I allow it: probably not. Why not? I am a helicopter pilot by trade and know about the real risks and this mere fact outweighs the benefit my son will achieve. Would my wife allow it: You cannot be serious!
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 2nd Aug 2017 at 08:33.
Informed consent is important but so is common sense.
Whether you're tossing yourself off a bridge in a wing suit or have decided to have your little ones hurled out a hovering helicopter - you don't need to be a pilot to realise there is danger involved. And danger far beyond the number of engines or indeed OEI performance.
Risk averse types are unlikely to agree to little Johnny being pushed out the door of a helo irrespective of the twerp's name on the TV show.
The repercussions involved with an accident, in the UK anyway, will ensure as much risk has been mitigated as possible.
In reality you have a greater chance of dieing from a bad curry than there being a problem with the aircraft.
Whether you're tossing yourself off a bridge in a wing suit or have decided to have your little ones hurled out a hovering helicopter - you don't need to be a pilot to realise there is danger involved. And danger far beyond the number of engines or indeed OEI performance.
Risk averse types are unlikely to agree to little Johnny being pushed out the door of a helo irrespective of the twerp's name on the TV show.
The repercussions involved with an accident, in the UK anyway, will ensure as much risk has been mitigated as possible.
In reality you have a greater chance of dieing from a bad curry than there being a problem with the aircraft.
TC
As a kid my parents allowed me to
1. Join the scouts
2. Join the CCF
3. go on mountaineering trips
4. race motor cross bikes
5. play rugby to a high level as a kid
6. go off with friends on our bikes and misbehave
7. go off camping with friends as a teenager
8. drive to the Alps for a month as a 17 year old in mothers car to go climbing( only discovered on return need to be 18 to drive in France ! )
9. In fact as 15 year old take a bus to Chamonix to go climbing
10. Plus loads of other things
I am a better person for all these things.
I have taught my kids to fly helicopters, ( sickeningly my daughter is a better pilot than I am) . Yes they go climbing, abseiling, diving etc etc with my blessing. Am I worried, of course I am, but life is a risk. No one wants to die early, but life is what it is, you have one go on the planet enjoy it.
As has been said you are more likely to die from a dodgy curry than having an engine fail in a twin.
Just wish we didn't live in a society where everyone has to walk round in cotton wool, the younger generation would be way better off !
As a kid my parents allowed me to
1. Join the scouts
2. Join the CCF
3. go on mountaineering trips
4. race motor cross bikes
5. play rugby to a high level as a kid
6. go off with friends on our bikes and misbehave
7. go off camping with friends as a teenager
8. drive to the Alps for a month as a 17 year old in mothers car to go climbing( only discovered on return need to be 18 to drive in France ! )
9. In fact as 15 year old take a bus to Chamonix to go climbing
10. Plus loads of other things
I am a better person for all these things.
I have taught my kids to fly helicopters, ( sickeningly my daughter is a better pilot than I am) . Yes they go climbing, abseiling, diving etc etc with my blessing. Am I worried, of course I am, but life is a risk. No one wants to die early, but life is what it is, you have one go on the planet enjoy it.
As has been said you are more likely to die from a dodgy curry than having an engine fail in a twin.
Just wish we didn't live in a society where everyone has to walk round in cotton wool, the younger generation would be way better off !
I say again, I'm not 'agin it'. I just like to weigh up the pro's and con's.
Me jumping out of that same helo - yep. Why? I have life insurance, am past it and enough money to keep the family accustomed to the life they lead if I snuff it.
Would my 8 or 10 yr old neice/nephew do it - not if I have anything to do with it.
Would my same relatives do - Disney World - of course. Probably more thrilling and a darn sight safer than some tin pot set up for a TV show with (of all people) Bear Grylls being involved.
Bellringer - I thought being dressed up in fancy dress on a bridge having a wafty crank was for pilot's only
Me jumping out of that same helo - yep. Why? I have life insurance, am past it and enough money to keep the family accustomed to the life they lead if I snuff it.
Would my 8 or 10 yr old neice/nephew do it - not if I have anything to do with it.
Would my same relatives do - Disney World - of course. Probably more thrilling and a darn sight safer than some tin pot set up for a TV show with (of all people) Bear Grylls being involved.
Bellringer - I thought being dressed up in fancy dress on a bridge having a wafty crank was for pilot's only
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Hughes500... I would say most of the activities that you listed I did during my minority, and I woiuld say these activities are still available to children, but I would say with a better safety structure in place, particularly in terms of safety equipment and safeguarding.
To give an example, as I scout which was great, I was blindfolded and dumped into a wood in a Belgium forrest, and given twenty four hours to get back to camp, which was about thirty miles away, with verylimited resources. It was character building. On an another occasion with the scout troup of twenty, with the leader had to cross Lake Bassenthaite in the Lake District using two canoes, two GP 14's and the rest (14) had to swim, obviously we took in turns to swim. While is was great fun, these days it wouldn't be acceptable, not least in terms of insurance and liability of those leading the activity.
Going on to informed choice, by a parent or guardian, someone on here said he would probably not allow his children children to jump out of a helicopter and dragon ops (his wife definately would not. But in say in relation to air activities it is easier for a pilot to make and informed choise than a non pilot.
The next question should parents be warned of the risk, which would be the case prior to surgery. So by way of example should the parents of cadets flying G115 or Vigiliants be made aware or the risk of prop separation, maintenance issues or midairs and told there have been six fatalities, that is really difficult to answer. I am not sure what the RAF position on this is.
To give an example, as I scout which was great, I was blindfolded and dumped into a wood in a Belgium forrest, and given twenty four hours to get back to camp, which was about thirty miles away, with verylimited resources. It was character building. On an another occasion with the scout troup of twenty, with the leader had to cross Lake Bassenthaite in the Lake District using two canoes, two GP 14's and the rest (14) had to swim, obviously we took in turns to swim. While is was great fun, these days it wouldn't be acceptable, not least in terms of insurance and liability of those leading the activity.
Going on to informed choice, by a parent or guardian, someone on here said he would probably not allow his children children to jump out of a helicopter and dragon ops (his wife definately would not. But in say in relation to air activities it is easier for a pilot to make and informed choise than a non pilot.
The next question should parents be warned of the risk, which would be the case prior to surgery. So by way of example should the parents of cadets flying G115 or Vigiliants be made aware or the risk of prop separation, maintenance issues or midairs and told there have been six fatalities, that is really difficult to answer. I am not sure what the RAF position on this is.
TC
You really have no idea of what goes on, it is not a tin pot show, the organisers are all very professional. They are all ex military/SF guys. All qualified, they take constant refresher courses ( we did one last year with all his instructors, 25 of them, on helicopter ground handling )
At the end of the day the world is full of choices. The aircraft is suitable for the job, the pilot is professional,there are trained paramedics on site, risk assessments done. How do you know the parents weren't asked ?
As to nearest and dearest dying, yup experienced that, one of my son's mates tackled someone in an U14's rugby match, knocked out, died 24 hours later. Did it stop anyone playing at school ? Well parents were informed, everyone was happy for school to continue. Yes very sad and upsetting for everyone. Quite frankly one's child is more likely to be abducted than die in a helicopter crash over a lake while being filmed with BG
You really have no idea of what goes on, it is not a tin pot show, the organisers are all very professional. They are all ex military/SF guys. All qualified, they take constant refresher courses ( we did one last year with all his instructors, 25 of them, on helicopter ground handling )
At the end of the day the world is full of choices. The aircraft is suitable for the job, the pilot is professional,there are trained paramedics on site, risk assessments done. How do you know the parents weren't asked ?
As to nearest and dearest dying, yup experienced that, one of my son's mates tackled someone in an U14's rugby match, knocked out, died 24 hours later. Did it stop anyone playing at school ? Well parents were informed, everyone was happy for school to continue. Yes very sad and upsetting for everyone. Quite frankly one's child is more likely to be abducted than die in a helicopter crash over a lake while being filmed with BG
Hughes - perhaps you should realise that the label 'military/SF' does not automatically confirm expertise in any field - only an ability to accept higher than 'normal' levels of risk without flinching.
Hughes - perhaps you should realise that the label 'military/SF' does not automatically confirm expertise in any field - only an ability to accept higher than 'normal' levels of risk without flinching.
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But it does mean they are very professional in what they do. The laugh of all this is that my company has worked for them, but no one seems to believe my opinion they are professional in what they do.
But it does mean they are very professional in what they do. The laugh of all this is that my company has worked for them, but no one seems to believe my opinion they are professional in what they do.
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As the one who started this thread, essentially questiong and single engine failure in the hover. BG was just a red flag, and anything to do with him will continue to be, sooner or later, someone will die. I have no doubts that the operater and pilots under an AOC operate in a professional way. The CAA approval might be an issue, I say this having worked under an approval from the CAA which fell below a standard that I would work to, including droping of items and persons. you only have to look at CAA air display approvals to know they do not always think things through.
Regarding TC, I think he has made some valid points.
Again Crab has made a valid point regarding Military/SF types Through my career I have come worked with ex military types, and I do not question their professional ability, but the civilian world is very different in terms of risk. Most ex military transition well in the civilian, but not all do, what used to be called the 'wrong stuff' because they do not understand the difference between civil and miltary operations. I have never gone along just because someone is ex military/SF that makes the better in terms of safety. Case in point the airline captain who took his trousers off at security and on a later occassion saw nothing wrong in letter pax on the flightdeeck, then claimed unfair dismissel, he lost his case. While I do not question Special Forces professional ability, even the SAS lost three men in a day through hyperthermia during an exercise in Wales, incredible when you think some of the hot climates they have operated in.
As for BG, banging on about his SAS experience 1994 -1997, I guess that puts him somewhere between the Gulf War in 1991 and the invasion of Iraq in 2003, does this guy actually have any active military experience?
Regarding TC, I think he has made some valid points.
Again Crab has made a valid point regarding Military/SF types Through my career I have come worked with ex military types, and I do not question their professional ability, but the civilian world is very different in terms of risk. Most ex military transition well in the civilian, but not all do, what used to be called the 'wrong stuff' because they do not understand the difference between civil and miltary operations. I have never gone along just because someone is ex military/SF that makes the better in terms of safety. Case in point the airline captain who took his trousers off at security and on a later occassion saw nothing wrong in letter pax on the flightdeeck, then claimed unfair dismissel, he lost his case. While I do not question Special Forces professional ability, even the SAS lost three men in a day through hyperthermia during an exercise in Wales, incredible when you think some of the hot climates they have operated in.
As for BG, banging on about his SAS experience 1994 -1997, I guess that puts him somewhere between the Gulf War in 1991 and the invasion of Iraq in 2003, does this guy actually have any active military experience?
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My top survival tip for helicopters in the wild is always to take a two crew machine, that ways there's more to eat if it all goes wrong. Oh, and take the young fat ones, not the old skinny ones - they're tough as old boots...
