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Old 16th Mar 2017, 08:55   #101 (permalink)
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Who is we norunway? Are you part of the PPRuNe moderation team?

I fail to see your point, this is in the public domain and questions are being asked in the industry. Should we just have this thread as a meaningless condolence thread and cut out all the aviation talk? How is that helpful? Is the S92 at risk is what's on most people's minds?

Sorry but I disagree with you, this is no different to any other accident thread, all thoughts should be welcomed. No one reading will take any of the discussions as fact, more of a deeper insight into possible reasons and the thought processes behind them.

Like I said above, if it were one of my family, I'd be searching for answers now, not in 2yrs time when the accident report is released. Perhaps that's just me.

I do think it's wrong of you though to force the self righteous card. It's the internet, it's a public discussion forum, it's actually a rumour network going by the name.

Let people post what they want within reason and with no censorship, we are all adults. My son flys in an S92 every 3wks, am I worried that there may be an issue? Of course I am.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 09:15   #102 (permalink)
 
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At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast. They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.
To be fair to the Air Corps, though, SAR and top-cover are not funded or 'primary missions' and thus are flown as-available. It doesn't appear that ICG compensates them for any missions flown, and certainly it isn't deducted from CHC's budget, so crews and aircraft aren't dedicated on stand-by.

Before this incident I had assumed that SAR was a tasking but the CASAs are primarily for maritime surveillance, medevac and personnel transport.

The Air Corps even sent the LJ45 once for top-cover, since the aircraft and crew happened to be available at Baldonnel that day.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 09:33   #103 (permalink)
 
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Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 09:42   #104 (permalink)


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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
Mark was also a captain.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:06   #105 (permalink)
 
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The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
the press are reporting that he was the Chief Pilot.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:14   #106 (permalink)
 
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Norunway. I agree with Mitchaa. I also understand your point though. However, on this forum you will get professional opinions from Pilots, Rear Crew and Engineers who do this stuff every day. Sometimes we are not as professional in our postings as we maybe should be. Then you get others.

I have to say that over the years the "RIPs" and "Very Sads" are small consolation to those individuals who operate and maintain similar/identical types. We know the risks and the platitudes served on these forums are meaningless to us.

However, for family members and loved ones the clinical, technical descriptions, opinions and "Swags" may, or may not provide some comfort/explanation. That is the power of the internet.

What we, as a professional body of people, should not do, is apportion blame. Even when it may seem that "Pilot" or "Engineer" errors appears or is confirmed as the root cause. We should, and mostly do, look deeper. Why/How can that error be made? and most importantly, "Am I capable of the same error".

We are all stakeholders in these situations. Some are looking for explanations or reasons why an event occurs. Some are simply interested in whether it was "Aircraft" or "Human". Some are looking for news column inches.

Having said all of that, I have found over the last few years that many posters, of the professional type, add great value to understanding the details of such events. There is a lot more good than bad on PPRuNe.

You cannot suppress it. You cannot control it (unless you are a MOD). However, you should take what value you can and disregard the rest.

DB
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 10:23   #107 (permalink)
 
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Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
Unfortunately the circumstances regarding her rescue, subsequent death and no doubt, her gender played a big part in the amount of press cover she received. Also, there were plenty of archive photos etc which the press love to use to fill column/inches.

Every member of the crew play an important part in such operations and jeepys is correct to remind us not to, unintentionally, play down the loss of them.

Both pilots may have been captains by rank but the question of who was commander by role for this task has yet to be answered. The press seldom understand the distinction.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 11:00   #108 (permalink)


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Can I ask does the S92 have a TAWS system.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 11:06   #109 (permalink)
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Post number 17 has the ATC transcript recording with the voice of a male on the radio from rescue 116. Would this indicate who was commander or not? Not that it's really relevant.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 11:25   #110 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Mitchaa View Post
Post number 17 has the ATC transcript recording with the voice of a male on the radio from rescue 116. Would this indicate who was commander or not? Not that it's really relevant.
No. Either pilot, and possibly the rear crew, could be on the radio. The commander may or may not be the pilot flying.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 11:26   #111 (permalink)
 
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Can I ask does the S92 have a TAWS system
Yes - Honeywell EGPWS MK XXII

Quote:
Post number 17 has the ATC transcript recording with the voice of a male on the radio from rescue 116. Would this indicate who was commander or not? Not that it's really relevant.
Typically that would indicate he was acting as co-pilot
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 11:30   #112 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchaa View Post
Who is we norunway? Are you part of the PPRuNe moderation team?

I fail to see your point, this is in the public domain and questions are being asked in the industry. Should we just have this thread as a meaningless condolence thread and cut out all the aviation talk? How is that helpful? Is the S92 at risk is what's on most people's minds?

Sorry but I disagree with you, this is no different to any other accident thread, all thoughts should be welcomed. No one reading will take any of the discussions as fact, more of a deeper insight into possible reasons and the thought processes behind them.

Like I said above, if it were one of my family, I'd be searching for answers now, not in 2yrs time when the accident report is released. Perhaps that's just me.

I do think it's wrong of you though to force the self righteous card. It's the internet, it's a public discussion forum, it's actually a rumour network going by the name.

Let people post what they want within reason and with no censorship, we are all adults. My son flys in an S92 every 3wks, am I worried that there may be an issue? Of course I am.
Well said Mitchaa, as a PAX who originally came across this forum looking for information after CGR491 just over 8 years ago I find the majority of the posters on here great sources of additional points of view from an experienced knowledge base.

I next fly in a S-92A on Monday, as always I trust the pilots, who trust the AMEs, who trust the manufacturer to reduce the risk of rotary flight to as low as practically possible. The "recent" TRPCS bearing assembly issue is just another example of where can never drop our guard and always remain vigilant.

When tragic events such as 491 or 116 happen we all have a right to access to as much information as possible to determine whether or not we wish to continue accepting the inherent risks of helo flying. I've personally been accepting that risk for over 25 years and have no intentions to deviate from that.

I can tell you that it still grieves me to how 491 happened, but myself and my friends and collleagues who lost family members take some comfort in knowing that valuable lessons were learned and that the loss of life was not completely in vain. I kept that thought in my mind as we attended the 8th memorial service and the candles were lit by the family members for all 17 souls that were lost that day.

I'm sure that the friends and family of 116 will take comfort in knowing that they are all in our thoughts and prayers within our small community who use and rely on this AC type to not only save lives but also to make a living in our chosen industry, no matter what the root cause(s) emerge from the following investigation. It is human nature to ask the question "why" at this stage in the ongoing investigation.

Max
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 12:30   #113 (permalink)
 
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There's been speculation as to why an Irish Air Corps fixed wing aircraft wasn't despatched to provide top cover for Sligo crew.

The Defence Forces has said a request was made, but Baldonnel was unable to provide support.

From The Irish Times

Defence Forces staff shortage led to Rescue 116 being deployed

JAS
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 12:34   #114 (permalink)
 
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A night letdown over water in poor weather is a straightforward process which the crew will have practiced many times, They have a forward looking radar to check the area is clear of obstacles and they will let down to a predetermined height and engage the Trans Down mode for the autopilot - this will take them from a specified height (I don't know what their SOPS are) to a defined Rad Alt height over the water - hopefully VMC beneath the weather.

There will be several cross checks to make sure the AP is performing correctly as well as height and speed calls and crosschecks between the pilots and the rearcrew won't be twiddling their thumbs while this is going on either - possibly using the FLIR and or/monitoring the radar.

The crew will have also discussed the actions if they don't get visual.

It should be a pretty automated process unless the crew elect to manually fly the cyclic program in order to manoeuvre to keep clear of radar contacts or if a part of the AP system fails.

For CFIT to occur in this process would be unlikely unless they thought they were visual under the weather and disengaged the AP letdown modes - even then they would probably still retain the Rad Alt hold - in trying to transfer from instruments to NVD it is possible they lost visual references but this is the sort of thing they train for.

Once established in an overwater hover with everything coupled, they would discuss how to get to the LS and use the AP systems to achieve this.

With 2 pilots and a fully serviceable AP with all the bells and whistles, disorientation leading to CFIT is unlikely but not impossible.

There are many system failures, especially at crucial stages of flight low level over the water which could overwhelm the crew who are already working quite hard and are probably a little fatigued since it was 01:30 and any major catastrophic failure would be impossible to recover from at such low altitude in poor conditions.

We will eventually discover the sequence of events and possibly the cause or causes of the accident but not until the CVFDR is recovered and analysed.

Yes, it is 'just' another accident but when those who are required to fly in conditions when most would stop in order to rescue others and are killed in the course of their duties, it is doubly tragic.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 13:40   #115 (permalink)
 
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 14:49   #116 (permalink)
 
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Warning: Rant ahead.

Can the first hole in the cheese be assigned to the fact that the Air Corps were unable to provide fixed-wing top cover for the original Rescue 118 SAR mission?

As with the police force here, the Defense Forces have been consistently underfunded and under-resourced. For the Gardai, that has reulted in two policemen being shot dead in recent years and for the SAR crews (Air Corps and now CHC) has also directly or indirectly resulted in two SAR helicopter accidents with the loss of eight crewmen and women.

If the IAC Casa had provided top cover as requested, the R116 crew would in all likelihood be alive today. The inability of the IAC to launch a fixed-wing as requested is down to low staffing levels within the Casa squadron and the ATC unit at Baldonnell, apparently. If wages are too poor to retain skilled personnel, that needs to be examined. Baldonnel should not be a training school for Ryanair or other operators who can lure well-trained personnel away with ease. Ultimately, responsibility lies with our esteemed elected representatives in government. They fail to resource organisations like the Air Corps, then stupidly wonder why people die in accidents like this. The air accident investigation report more than likely won't highlight the inability of a so-called modern air arm to answer a request for fixed-wing top cover but it is the event that sets the ball rolling and ultimately leads the crew of R116 to the west coast.

The Taoiseach apparently has commented that the staff shortages within the Air Corps are "well known". It makes the blood boil.

500 Fan.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 15:26   #117 (permalink)
 
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500 Fan - your rant is a total red herring. Tasking was appropriate and as Crab points out should have been a doddle for an experienced SAR crew in a new sophisticated S92. 1.5 hour flight, lots of fuel, even for an alternate if required. Something doesn't look quite right on 212man's track picture, but maybe if someone pulls the speed data from AIS it would provide more info. Operator already would have his own sat-tracking info including altitudes, gear position, and communications with dispatch. In an incident like this the operator (especially one with a recent experience) follows a strict control of information protocol to assist investigators in unbiased analysis, and to safeguard reputation.

I see non-professionals on this thread reference "bravery" and "heroism". Two words that have absolutely no place in a civilian SAR operation. It is a profession, and the operator and supervising authority won't tolerate any action that hints of those words. We can leave that to media fodder.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 15:33   #118 (permalink)
 
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Something doesn't look quite right on 212man's track picture
Can you elaborate? Unfortunately the data seems time limited and no longer viewable, but the flight was about 1:55 I recall, with a groundspeed en-route commensurate with a moderate westerly headwind. During the teardrop manoeuvre, the groundspeed was around 70 kts into wind, and 90 kts downwind - as shown in the last data point next to the rock.

Just registered for free and now see 3 days of history, so it departed at 22:05 UTC and final record at 23:45 - so 1:40 flight.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 15:37   #119 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by 500 Fan View Post
Can the first hole in the cheese be assigned to the fact that the Air Corps were unable to provide fixed-wing top cover for the original Rescue 118 SAR mission?
Why would this be a hole in the Cheese (apart from the fact that a Helicopter that doesn't fly won't crash)?

Providing Top cover isn't exactly something that would be considered 'High Risk' operation. At least beyond the fact that at night over unlit sea (apart from the Lighthouses) is always a somewhat increased risk environment. But for such an experienced crew and capable machine that shouldn't be anywhere near High Risk.
Doesn't rule out CFIT but it is not a natural conclusion given the circumstances.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 15:46   #120 (permalink)
 
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Providing Top cover isn't exactly something that would be considered 'High Risk' operation. At least beyond the fact that at night over unlit sea (apart from the Lighthouses) is always a somewhat increased risk environment. But for such an experienced crew and capable machine that shouldn't be anywhere near High Risk.
Doesn't rule out CFIT but it is not a natural conclusion given the circumstances.
But, it hadn't got to that stage in the mission - it was planning to refuel at Blacksod before proceeding on task, any reference to 'top cover' is largely irrelevant in the specific context of the accident scenario (outside of discussion about the aircraft being airborne at all).
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