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Old 20th Mar 2017, 16:53   #341 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?
The beacon signal has been located, indicating roughly where the CVFDR is on the sea floor, but it has not been visually confirmed or physically retrieved yet.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 17:11   #342 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?
Located but not recovered.

They did sonar scans on the area yesterday with smaller craft and will dive or send in ROV as soon as the weather permits.

Quote:
Local vessels carried out detailed inspections of the undersea conditions using sonar scanning technology. They surveyed depth and access points as well as mapping obstacles to ensure that divers will have a considerable insight into the local geography when they begin their operations.
Taoiseach says families of Rescue 116 crew need answers

Quote:
A signal from the black box was detected last Wednesday but heavy swells and bad weather have prevented sub-aqua teams carrying out exploratory dives.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...te-445683.html

Quote:
The Coast Guard's Declan Geoghegan said that they have made significant progress.
"All the work that we set out to do in terms of the preparatory work for the launch and the main rescue mission has been completed," he said.
"It's just weather dependent now. At the moment the forecast doesn't look great - I'm mainly talking about swell in that area."
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...ew-782209.html

Last edited by Red5ive; 20th Mar 2017 at 17:28.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 19:54   #343 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by snakepit View Post
The article above is very enlightening but I believe it relates to the specifications of the 92 brought in for the contract straight from Sikorsky? Of note is the fact that it had EuroNav in the front which is being taken as indication that all the Irish CG S92s are the same.

Question - were the 4 aircraft that were transferred from the CHC UK Interim SAR contract also updated to have EuroNav? When they served the contract in the UK they were not fitted with EuroNav in the front so there may be a difference in aircraft modification states across the fleet. The lack of mapping in the front of 4 of the 5 aircraft might mean slightly different procedures are required depending upon which aircraft the crews are in.

The article also shows the Sikorsky derived S92 was based at Sligo whereas the Dublin aircraft was from the UK contract and therefore may not have had EuroNav mapping in the cockpit? Speculation based on what the crews may have done using a mapping system that no one is sure was actually fitted will not help, but knowing for sure what the actual fit was may be of more help?
Snake pit

That's a useful insight. I'd originally intimated that the Irish SAR S92 fleet only had a moving map display in the cabin but withdrew the post when the above article was posted and I felt that I'd put inaccurate information on the forum. Having aircraft with differing modification states would be nothing new to Irish SAR.

If there was only a moving map in the cabin then the cockpit crew would be semi - reliant upon the rearcrew to inform them of their position relative to Blacksod and Blackrock.

So can anyone provide clarity? Was there a moving map in the cockpit?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 21:35   #344 (permalink)
 
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RTÉ the national broadcaster has just reported the AAIU as stating that a significant amount of wreckage has been recovered, and that damage is consistent with tail section striking "rocky surfaces" on Blackrock.

Closing piece on Main TV news at 9.00pm. No link yet.

Edit: more emerging.

From Newstalk -

A "significant amount" of wreckage from the missing Rescue 116 helicopter has been recovered near Black Rock Light House, the AAIU confirmed.

In a statement this evening, the AAIU said a significant amount of wreckage has been recovered from the sea and this has been logged and will be brought to the AAIU wreckage facility in Gormanston, Co Meath, for detailed examination.

"Some helicopter wreckage has been recovered from the general area of Black Rock Light House," the statement reads. "This wreckage is primarily from the tail area of the helicopter. At this early stage in the investigation it is not possible to be definitive about the exact nature of damage to the recovered wreckage or indeed the circumstances of the accident.

"However, there appears to be marks on some of the recovered wreckage which are consistent with the tail of the aircraft contacting rocky surfaces on the Western end of Blackrock. The investigation has not yet definitively identified the initial point of impact."

In addition, the AAIU expressed that they were "anxious" to recover and examine as much wreckage as possible, and in particular to recover the combined voice and flight data recorder, or 'black box'.

Link http://http://www.newstalk.com/reader/47.301/95419/0/
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 21:42   #345 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by juice View Post
RTÉ the national broadcaster has just reported the AAIU as stating that a significant amount of wreckage has been recovered, and that damage is consistent with tail section striking "rocky surfaces" on Blackrock.

Closing piece on Main TV news at 9.00pm. No link yet.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0320/860998-progress-in-search-for-116-crew/
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 21:43   #346 (permalink)
 
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 21:55   #347 (permalink)
 
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Regarding the wreckage "recovered from the general area of Black Rock Light House" I'm wondering if the parts of the tail bearing signs of impact with rocks were recovered from the shoreline or from high ground near the lighthouse itself ?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 22:04   #348 (permalink)
 
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Would reports of the search being delayed by the sea conditions not tend to indicate that there is no seaborne or shoreline work at Black Rock and this was a landward discovery?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 22:14   #349 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jimf671 View Post
Would reports of the search being delayed by the sea conditions not tend to indicate that there is no seaborne or shoreline work at Black Rock and this was a landward discovery?
No, they would not.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 22:29   #350 (permalink)
 
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From Breaking News on the Irish Independent tonight


Investigation into downed Rescue 116 reveals marks 'consistent with aircraft hitting rocks' - Independent.ie
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:03   #351 (permalink)
 
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Red5ive posted the official Press Release....which stated "Some Helicopter wreckage has been recovered from the general area of Blackrock Light House....".

They did not say.....in the general area of Blackrock but specified the Light House.

Even allowing for translating that into American Redneck Speak....that tells me the Investigators went ashore at Blackrock and in walking about the Light House area....found bits off the Aircraft.

Or....did I completely misunderstand the Press Release?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:10   #352 (permalink)
 
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No; that's already established over the weekend. They did, but define "close to the lighthouse" : it's a pretty small rock!
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:43   #353 (permalink)
 
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why blackrock? only time will tell..

So it looks like this confirms the theories of contact made with blackrock island from a westerly approach.The AIS data did put the aircraft just west of the island at 12.46am,heading east at 098 degrees towards the west side of the island but at a slow speed of 9kts. From the AAIU information it appears that the tail of the heli collided with the western rockface.Would this mean that the heli was turning away from the island at the last second and that the tail rotor struck the cliff as the crew attempted to save the situation?Maybe with the weather it wasnt possible to see the cliff face till the last second .It still seems strange that the EGPWS did not warn the crew earlier?This does look like a CFIT incident but only time and the fdr cvr will tell for sure.It still looks like they should not have been near blackrock at all.The flight track from dublin goes directly to this rock and not Blacksod. While some have mentioned it could have been used as an approach point this is looking increasingly unlikely given the helis low altitude 9nm out,the low speed of 9kts and the radiocall at 12.45 saying landing shortly at blacksod. It would be interesting to see how these 2 lighthouses appear as navaids in the fms and if the codes are similar.Or do the coordinates of these remote lighthouses have to be entered manually?It is worth looking at the flightpath again in light of the new AAIU information -see attached.This approach shape would have worked perfectly for sealevel blacksod. If one believed they were at sealevel low blacksod but were actually at blackrock it would be serious.At Blacksod you could fly east and low towards the lighthouse and let down 50m away from it without issue,using the same technique in blackrock could leave a collision unavoidable particularly with a low cloud base.However this scenario does seem difficult to believe with such a highly experienced and capable crew used to far more challenging operations out at sea and only the fdr and cvr will tell the full story.

western contact.jpg
Flightpath.jpg
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:56   #354 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Mark Six View Post
Are Blackrock and Blacksod already in the pre-loaded waypoints in the FMS data base or
do they need to be loaded manually? If pre-loaded what are the respective designators?
Didn't get a response the first time I posted this. Might be relevant. Anyone?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:58   #355 (permalink)


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https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/843969168785506309https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/843969168785506309
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 00:22   #356 (permalink)
 
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Any thoughts on how one crew member was recovered outside the helicopter and the expectation that three more crew members may remain inside the helicopter ?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 01:03   #357 (permalink)


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Recovered crew member

I know Captain Fitzpatrick had completed dunk test two weeks ago, so procedure was very familiar to her, what I am asking is why her personal locater did not alert rescue services to her location
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 01:39   #358 (permalink)
 
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Sure, as a thought. One crew member was successfully able to extricate themselves from the aircraft using taught escape techniques (whether the aircraft remained on the surface briefly, or whilst submerged). The others, through physical incapacity due to injury, or through misfortune being caught up in wreckage, regrettably were unable to do so.

Given reports that the tail was found on land, it would have been a very short and wildly disorientating ride in the dark from the point of impact to the flights conclusion with absolutely nothing a crew can do to recover the situation, short of shutting down the engines prior to impact. And I'd be surprised if there was time to even do that.

Regarding activation of the personal locator, as far as I know this requires manual activation. Injuries sustained during egress from submerged helicopter may have rendered the survivor unconscious (and this is exactly what happened to the Australian Army Blackhawk pilot that was killed in the HMAS Kanimbla accident off Fiji - by the time he arrived at the surface after deep water escape he was unconscious and subsequently died from salt water inspiration).

Last edited by gulliBell; 21st Mar 2017 at 02:36.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 03:16   #359 (permalink)
 
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Cpt. Fitzpatrick Condition

Apologies if I'm breaching etiquette, but has anyone seen reports that indicate the pilot was responsive at the time of rescue? I only ask because a few military veteran coworkers' general response to the reports of "critical condition" was that this was SOP if SAR crews did not have someone licensed to pronounce at the point of rescue, and so the condition is not changed to "deceased" until reaching the hospital and the attention of full MDs. Is this generally correct?

I realise there is also a desire to keep some level of details away from the press out of respect for the families, but I ask because this might be a relevant detail distinguishing between an aircraft with enough left to go into the water under some control, allowing for egress; and a completely uncontrolled descent, where crew are ejected during impact.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 04:08   #360 (permalink)
 
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If the tail rotor and presumably a chunk of tail cone was missing from the helicopter, which departed the scene suddenly and unexpectedly, at night, and at low level, I think it's a fair assumption that the helicopter was completely out of control from that point until it impacted the water. I don't think a cockpit crew would be ejected from an S92 during a crash sequence. To be released from the seat would require a conscious action from the crew member to unbuckle the seat harness. If they were ejected from the aircraft whilst still attached to the seat, I think the impact forces required to do that would not be survivable in any event, and if ejected whilst still attached to the seat they'd probably sink and not float to the surface.
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